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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with author and UFO researcher grant

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Cameron we track this guy down he turns

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out to be dr. Eric Walker who was former

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president of Penn State University for

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15 years he was the chairman of the

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board of the Institute for Defense

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analysis which is the top military

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think-tank for the United States

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military he what he was the code

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developer of the the homing torpedo he

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was friends with Vannevar Bush he had

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this incredible unbelievable background

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of you know military and connections

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with presidents and stuff like this so

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when we go to him we're interviewing him

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as UFO researchers we're not thinking

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about the mind we couldn't care less

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about you know we had no connection

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whatsoever we're talking to him and

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we're trying to find out in the suppose

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a UFO group that runs the whole thing is

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the the mj-12 we're asking questions on

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mj-12 did you have contact with the

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aliens how did the thing operate how did

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you cover up the UFO thing and in 1990

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in the middle of one of these interviews

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he suddenly cuts off the conversation

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talking about hardware about bodies and

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Aulus hirtius and he suddenly says how

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good is your sixth sense how much do you

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know about ESP and the other guy goes

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well you know I don't really it's not

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have interests to him I don't know

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what's going on and Walker says then as

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unless you know about it and how to use

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it you will not be taken in because the

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question was about who's running the

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group puts this mj-12 how many people

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are on the group how are these people

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operating and he says unless you I know

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about ESP and how to use it you would

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not be taken in by this overriding group

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that runs the UFO program only a few

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know about it and then in 1993 there's a

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related story with Ben rich Ben rich was

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the guy who ran skunk works over the the

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u2 the sr-71 the stealth fighter the

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stealth bomber they were all developed

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by what was called skunk works and Ben

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rich ran it and he would get a number of

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questions about was this UFO technology

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and he's giving a lecture in 1993's

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he's dying of cancer he gives a lecture

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at UCLA to a bunch of engineers he

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finishes the lecture he's

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walking out and one of the engineers

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who's interested in UFOs runs after and

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he says to been rich he says been rich

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how are these things propelled how are

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UFOs propelled and been rich turns

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around and he says to him let me ask you

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a question how does ESP work

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh we're going to

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look at the connection between the UFO

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phenomena and consciousness and the

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person who's going to take us through

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that journey is an independent

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researcher who I greatly admire for his

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tenacity and the sheer volume of work

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that he's done on the subject so today

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you're not just going to hear

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first-person accounts or stories of

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people have had these encounters but

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you're actually going to hear about

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government insiders very high-level

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government insiders that Grant Cameron

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has talked to and can provide some

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interesting insights into the connection

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between the UFO phenomena and

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consciousness it's a fascinating topic

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if somewhat challenging for those who

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are still on the sidelines of the UFO

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phenomena here's my interview with grant

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Cameron today we welcome grant Cameron -

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skeptic Oh grant is a highly regarded

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UFO researcher who's made some

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fascinating connections between what we

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know about the UFO phenomena and the

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kind of extended human consciousness we

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talk so much about here on skeptic Oh

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grant is in the process of publishing

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two new books and regularly blogs at

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presidential UFO dot-com

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welcome grant thanks for joining us yes

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thanks for having me so grant one of the

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things that we like to do on skeptic OH

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is to keep pulling on a string and

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follow it as far as we can and that's

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what I think led me to you because when

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you look at human consciousness and you

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start looking for explanations for

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things like telepathy precognition

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out-of-body experiences and all the

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altered states of consciousness that

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serious researchers like Rick Strassman

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has looked into with his DMT research or

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even Terence Mckenna used to talk about

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and it was when you try and take that in

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whole and

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you keep pulling at it that string

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eventually leads you to bumping up

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against this UFO thing and the numerous

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reports of mind control and really

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consciousness bending kind of ideas that

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you run into so when I heard on an

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interview and I heard you saying that

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the government insiders who really know

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about the UFO Kip thing all say that you

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can't really understand this UFO

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phenomena without having an expanded

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view of human consciousness well I guess

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that really got me intrigued and that's

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what I was hoping we would talk about

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today so let me start with this I want

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to jump right to the end and tell me how

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you came to this conclusion about

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consciousness being fundamental to

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understanding the UFO phenomena okay

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maybe I should first said about my my

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sort of a little bit of my background

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what happened was I got involved 1975

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just at the end of the Vietnam War right

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along the Canadian US border where the

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US have all their Minuteman 3 missile

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silos that's where we had a bunch of

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sightings now but before then I'd never

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thought about UFOs I had no interest

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whatsoever but I did have an interest in

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stuff like Edgar Cayce research and

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reincarnation research is very

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interested in the work of dr. Michael

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Newton I was very much interested in

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near-death and consciousness in the

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source loss but UFOs had no interest

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whatsoever so I started in 1975 and I

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had these sightings and really the

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consciousness thing didn't come up for

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like 35 years it wasn't until I was at a

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conference last year in Phoenix Arizona

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and I had filed a lot of UFO material I

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started with sightings realized that

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sightings really wasn't getting us

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anywhere and got into the the government

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aspect of the documents and somebody

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must know about this sort of stuff so

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for 35 or 37 years I collected material

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and documents and all

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now grant let me interject here because

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you're kind of glossing over the extent

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of your research which I think it is

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phenomenal and we can we can talk about

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the whole field of UFO research and how

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an independent UFO researcher like you

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has the the guts and the determination

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to do this but you're a guy who's filed

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how many Freedom of Information requests

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and and how many have been how much how

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many have you filed and how many pages

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of documents are we talking about that

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you've gathered in your research oh my

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goodness I've got a over a hundred free

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Information Act requests with the

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Clinton Library what you do is you

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basically go to different departments

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and what I had done was I tried to find

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who had the answer and I figured well

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the president United States is

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supposedly the most powerful man in the

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world he must know so I would file with

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various libraries presidential libraries

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looking for their documents on UFOs and

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also on remote viewing psychic phenomena

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this sort of stuff trying to find out

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what is the president know about these

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very sort of intricate involved parts of

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reality and figuring that at his level

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he must have a better idea than you and

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I on in the public would know so with

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the Clintons where Clinton was very

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interested in consciousness in UFOs

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Hillary was very much into you know she

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got caught with this channeling thing

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with this gene Houston and in New York

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City this big scandal where she was sort

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of talking to Gandhi and Eleanor

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Roosevelt and this so that they were

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really interested and I filed a lot of

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for your Commission shock requests there

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and I basically traveled to all the

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different presidential libraries looking

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for these these documents and it really

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wasn't that successful except for the

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Clintons but in terms of documents I

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probably have oh maybe 10,000 pages of

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material and a lot of it is just sort of

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you know not the hard answers this or

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stuff but stuff that that sort of

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relates so I've collected a lawful lot

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of material just trying to sort of put

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it together and there really wasn't much

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of a

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answer and have had these sort of

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moments of sort of insight one was when

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I had my first UFO sighting in 75 which

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is sort of just to hit you and it's like

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wow you know I didn't believe this this

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existed the other one was when I saw dr.

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Michael Newton talking about life

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between lives he lectured this is about

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1990 he lectured in Laughlin Nevada I

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saw that lecture and that just sort of

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changed my life and the third one was

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when we got into his real consciousness

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thing this was last year in Phoenix

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where all the UFO lectures then this

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conference goes on for about a week and

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it's like lecture after lecture for a

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whole week so I listen to all these

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different lectures and there seem to be

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this thing where various people who were

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talking we're talking about

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consciousness not wasn't the main part

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of their lecture but it was just a sub

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topic in the lecture for example dr.

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Steven Greer who's done a did the

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disclosure news conference trying to

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expose all the high-level government

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witnesses he had talked about this

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consciousness thing that this is at the

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at the basis of the of the UFO

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interaction with with the earth and

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David sarita and all the various

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abduction researchers who would talk

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about this this mental telepathy thing

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that was going between the abductees and

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the and the the aliens that nothing

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happened by by word of mouth it was all

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telepathy and so this is sort of a

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subtopic but it wasn't until the last

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lecture in the last lecture was given by

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Colin Andrews and Colin Andrews is for

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people who know the crop circles the

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famous crop circles in England Colin

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Andrews is the key researcher he started

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in 82 he is the top researcher on crop

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circles and he gave this lecture which

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was called circles consciousness circles

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or circles of consciousness or something

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like that

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and it just it was one of these

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mind-altering things that I when I heard

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his lecture talking about the fact that

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the aliens were sort of making crop

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circles but they were also controlling

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the people who were hoaxing crop circles

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and that was his old lecture was that

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there was an 80% of the crop circles are

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hoaxed but that the people that he

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talked to who are hosting the crop

275
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:37,140
circles we're talking about some sort of

276
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interaction some sort of

277
00:11:44,329 --> 00:11:41,399
force that was getting them to make

278
00:11:45,889 --> 00:11:44,339
certain types of circles and and so his

279
00:11:47,569 --> 00:11:45,899
thing was that the aliens control old

280
00:11:49,730 --> 00:11:47,579
think the real circles and the hoax

281
00:11:53,150 --> 00:11:49,740
circles and it was this whole idea that

282
00:11:54,590 --> 00:11:53,160
the aliens were sort of in control of

283
00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:54,600
what is going on that they're they're

284
00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:56,310
part of the cover-up and they're part of

285
00:11:59,869 --> 00:11:58,290
this sort of interaction with the human

286
00:12:02,540 --> 00:11:59,879
race that they're sort of leading us

287
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:02,550
along and I got this sort of an instant

288
00:12:06,290 --> 00:12:04,800
insight for thirty five thirty seven

289
00:12:08,210 --> 00:12:06,300
years of research where suddenly

290
00:12:10,009 --> 00:12:08,220
everything sort of fit together all

291
00:12:11,929 --> 00:12:10,019
these stories that I can sort of relate

292
00:12:13,460 --> 00:12:11,939
to you these little things that I've

293
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:13,470
known for years and years and years

294
00:12:17,660 --> 00:12:15,689
everything suddenly fit together no

295
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:17,670
grant hold on because there's a lot

296
00:12:22,629 --> 00:12:20,730
going on here and I want to back up for

297
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:22,639
a minute and say that you know this

298
00:12:27,650 --> 00:12:25,050
realization that you had that these

299
00:12:30,019 --> 00:12:27,660
pieces fit together I think is kind of

300
00:12:32,540 --> 00:12:30,029
interesting and I share your your

301
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:32,550
perspective on it from the beginning

302
00:12:37,939 --> 00:12:35,610
these accounts have always had this

303
00:12:38,809 --> 00:12:37,949
element to them this extended

304
00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:38,819
consciousness

305
00:12:44,569 --> 00:12:41,550
you know we had Stan Friedman on this

306
00:12:46,490 --> 00:12:44,579
show a while ago and this show that

307
00:12:48,410 --> 00:12:46,500
we're doing today grant will be only the

308
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:48,420
second show that we've ever done that

309
00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:50,910
touches on UFOs and again our approach

310
00:12:55,009 --> 00:12:52,620
to it is to look at the connection

311
00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:55,019
between consciousness but Stan Friedman

312
00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:57,930
of course you note did pretty extensive

313
00:13:04,819 --> 00:13:00,360
work on the Betty and Barney Hill

314
00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:04,829
abduction case in 1950 and he's not that

315
00:13:08,780 --> 00:13:07,470
interested in consciousness so he

316
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:08,790
immediately brought to the table well

317
00:13:15,619 --> 00:13:12,480
yeah this guy pulls off the road has no

318
00:13:18,259 --> 00:13:15,629
no reason or explanation for why he's

319
00:13:20,689 --> 00:13:18,269
done it CNN is communicating

320
00:13:22,369 --> 00:13:20,699
telepathically so you have both the mind

321
00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:22,379
control why would this guy who's really

322
00:13:26,929 --> 00:13:24,180
kind of fastidious and would never get

323
00:13:28,910 --> 00:13:26,939
in the dust in the dirt pull off on this

324
00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:28,920
gravel road and get outside of the car

325
00:13:34,069 --> 00:13:31,649
and then to what how did he know this

326
00:13:36,499 --> 00:13:34,079
stuff without communicating so from back

327
00:13:38,449 --> 00:13:36,509
in the 50s there's these reports so I

328
00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:38,459
just want to emphasize what you brought

329
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:40,680
up that you know this has kind of been

330
00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:43,740
hanging around there for a long time and

331
00:13:47,809 --> 00:13:45,420
no one's really put two pieces together

332
00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:47,819
but but now that that I've kind of

333
00:13:51,499 --> 00:13:49,350
interrupted you I want to get you back

334
00:13:52,190 --> 00:13:51,509
on track okay well let me clarify that

335
00:13:54,770 --> 00:13:52,200
compared

336
00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:54,780
- there's a part of the the UFO

337
00:14:00,590 --> 00:13:57,810
community who believes very deeply in

338
00:14:03,550 --> 00:14:00,600
this the the abduction stuff and if you

339
00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:03,560
listen to the two top researchers were

340
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:06,840
David Jacobs and Budd Hopkins and they

341
00:14:10,610 --> 00:14:08,970
talked about the fact that after 1975 we

342
00:14:12,620 --> 00:14:10,620
knew everything we had knew about UFOs

343
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:12,630
in terms of sightings and really nothing

344
00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:15,210
you had to get into inside the craft to

345
00:14:18,860 --> 00:14:16,920
know what's going on and they would talk

346
00:14:21,860 --> 00:14:18,870
about this interaction between abductees

347
00:14:24,950 --> 00:14:21,870
and the aliens but they made the

348
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:24,960
connection was that other than that

349
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:26,880
all the people who've talked to aliens

350
00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:28,890
it's all hoaxes like back to the 1950s

351
00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:30,990
the Betty and Barney Hill thing did not

352
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:35,070
start until 1962 when when they started

353
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,200
to make this thing public and before

354
00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:39,120
then for example when when they were

355
00:14:44,060 --> 00:14:41,820
first abducted they went to night cap

356
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:44,070
which was the biggest UFO grouping in

357
00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:45,690
the world at the time and they was

358
00:14:51,770 --> 00:14:48,990
headed by major Keyhoe and major Keyhoe

359
00:14:54,050 --> 00:14:51,780
said this is nonsense little aliens do

360
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:54,060
not abduct people on the roads and he

361
00:14:57,620 --> 00:14:55,650
basically would not touch this thing

362
00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:57,630
with a ten-foot pole the same as jail

363
00:15:02,450 --> 00:14:59,100
and Hynek who is probably the most

364
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:02,460
prominent UFO researcher in the world of

365
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:04,710
all times the same thing he said stay

366
00:15:09,230 --> 00:15:07,050
away from abductions it's it's it's no

367
00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:09,240
good don't don't go to abductions and a

368
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:10,860
lot of people avoided that sort of

369
00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:13,110
interaction thing and one of the things

370
00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:14,820
that people left out when when you get

371
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:17,280
Hopkins and and people like this who are

372
00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:19,050
talking about the abduction thing they

373
00:15:22,610 --> 00:15:20,340
say everybody everything else is

374
00:15:24,410 --> 00:15:22,620
nonsense and I started back with the

375
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:24,420
work of Wilbur Smith who ran the

376
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:26,670
Canadian government UFO program is the

377
00:15:31,850 --> 00:15:28,290
Kenyan government investigated this

378
00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:31,860
thing and from 1950 to 1954 and there's

379
00:15:35,450 --> 00:15:33,540
a top-secret memo it's a legitimate

380
00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:35,460
top-secret memo was Declassified by the

381
00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:37,320
Canadian government and in that memo

382
00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:39,060
Wilbert Smith who was running the Qing

383
00:15:43,220 --> 00:15:41,820
government UFO program writes to the

384
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:43,230
deputy minister of the Department of

385
00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:47,490
Transport giving a report on on UFOs and

386
00:15:51,770 --> 00:15:50,070
he said Oh grant let me let me interject

387
00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:51,780
here because this is a really an

388
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:55,080
important memo for folks who are still

389
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:57,120
on the skeptical side for the whole UFO

390
00:16:02,660 --> 00:15:59,610
thing what I want you to do is talk

391
00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:02,670
about in real simple terms who will

392
00:16:08,660 --> 00:16:05,700
burst Smith is and why it what you just

393
00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:08,670
did so suddenly say that how did Wilbur

394
00:16:13,490 --> 00:16:10,950
Smith come to write this memo

395
00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:13,500
why was he down in DC and why should we

396
00:16:16,910 --> 00:16:15,630
believe what's in the memo I along the

397
00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:16,920
way of course you have to tell us what's

398
00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:19,860
in this memo okay he was a he was called

399
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:21,540
the senior senior radio engineer and

400
00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:23,370
after the program was shut down he was

401
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:27,630
actually promoted to the communications

402
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:28,620
that sort of the head of communications

403
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:31,440
and he worked at Shirley's Bay which is

404
00:16:37,790 --> 00:16:34,890
outside of Ottawa the Canadian capital

405
00:16:40,190 --> 00:16:37,800
and basically it's the NSA of Canada he

406
00:16:42,110 --> 00:16:40,200
ran Radio Ottawa which is trying to pick

407
00:16:43,580 --> 00:16:42,120
off Russian communications he was in

408
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:43,590
charge of all the radio frequencies

409
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:46,650
am/fm radio frequencies so when the FM

410
00:16:52,070 --> 00:16:49,770
radio came in in the in the late 50s he

411
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:52,080
would negotiate with the Americans on

412
00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:53,970
radio frequencies along the border you

413
00:16:58,190 --> 00:16:55,470
get this frequency we get this frequency

414
00:16:59,750 --> 00:16:58,200
but he also controlled the military

415
00:17:02,150 --> 00:16:59,760
frequencies and the intelligence

416
00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:02,160
frequencies and and handing out radio

417
00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:04,459
frequencies to these people and he was

418
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:08,579
given the job to research the Flying

419
00:17:13,939 --> 00:17:10,650
Saucer thing he was very interested he

420
00:17:16,670 --> 00:17:13,949
said that he was down at a conference in

421
00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:16,680
Washington DC and he a couple of books

422
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:18,600
you have a famous book UFO books that

423
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:20,160
came out and he started to ask questions

424
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:23,100
and he said he basically got these

425
00:17:26,689 --> 00:17:25,410
confirmations and so he writes back to

426
00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:26,699
the Canadian government and he's

427
00:17:31,790 --> 00:17:29,100
reporting on what he learned in at the

428
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:31,800
Canadian embassy in Washington DC as

429
00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:33,690
part of his job I mean he's reporting

430
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:34,830
but this is what he's supposed to be

431
00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:36,450
doing it's also his passion and his

432
00:17:42,590 --> 00:17:39,000
interest but this is a real guy in

433
00:17:44,690 --> 00:17:42,600
Canadian security in the u.s. in DC and

434
00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:44,700
asking around hey what is about what

435
00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:46,920
about this UFO stuff yeah and he's

436
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:48,150
coming he's going through the military

437
00:17:52,310 --> 00:17:50,910
attache which was attached to the

438
00:17:54,530 --> 00:17:52,320
research and development board in the

439
00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:54,540
United States the Kane military liaison

440
00:17:58,220 --> 00:17:55,740
guy was giving him a lot of this

441
00:17:59,480 --> 00:17:58,230
information and the research and

442
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,490
development board in the United States

443
00:18:03,770 --> 00:18:01,440
was in charge of the hydrogen bomb all

444
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:03,780
the weapon research this was the key

445
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:06,210
sort of research and development aspect

446
00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:08,970
of the the American military so he's

447
00:18:12,770 --> 00:18:10,830
getting this material and he reports

448
00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:12,780
back the basic things that that he awful

449
00:18:17,150 --> 00:18:14,880
people have always for 30 years have

450
00:18:18,109 --> 00:18:17,160
talked about this UFO thing he says

451
00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:18,119
flying saucers

452
00:18:23,749 --> 00:18:21,569
the most highly classified subject the

453
00:18:25,549 --> 00:18:23,759
United States rated two points higher

454
00:18:28,099 --> 00:18:25,559
than the hydrogen bomb this was written

455
00:18:30,379 --> 00:18:28,109
in December of 1950 two years before the

456
00:18:31,969 --> 00:18:30,389
first hydrogen bomb was detonated so

457
00:18:33,529 --> 00:18:31,979
this is before the hydrogen bomb and

458
00:18:35,479 --> 00:18:33,539
he's saying this is higher higher

459
00:18:38,659 --> 00:18:35,489
classification than the hydrogen bomb

460
00:18:40,849 --> 00:18:38,669
and then he says that there's a small

461
00:18:43,729 --> 00:18:40,859
group headed by dr. Vannevar Bush who

462
00:18:46,279 --> 00:18:43,739
was the the scientific adviser to

463
00:18:49,089 --> 00:18:46,289
Roosevelt during World War two we go to

464
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:49,099
guy Vannevar Bush is the go-to guy for

465
00:18:55,399 --> 00:18:52,559
everything right at the highest level

466
00:18:58,039 --> 00:18:55,409
your atomic bomb your jet engine

467
00:19:00,619 --> 00:18:58,049
proximity fuze every major development

468
00:19:02,149 --> 00:19:00,629
during roar to was headed the scientific

469
00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:02,159
aspect was headed by dr. banner of our

470
00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:04,319
bush and then so Smith is saying he's

471
00:19:08,419 --> 00:19:06,329
given the job to figure out this flying

472
00:19:10,909 --> 00:19:08,429
saucer thing so Smith is going back and

473
00:19:12,709 --> 00:19:10,919
saying flying saucers are real he was

474
00:19:14,329 --> 00:19:12,719
told by American officials and he

475
00:19:16,729 --> 00:19:14,339
doesn't say like some guy he's saying

476
00:19:18,739 --> 00:19:16,739
American officials are telling him that

477
00:19:20,059 --> 00:19:18,749
this is for real and that if we have

478
00:19:22,819 --> 00:19:20,069
anything to exchange they're willing to

479
00:19:24,619 --> 00:19:22,829
exchange and so for 30 years in UFO

480
00:19:28,039 --> 00:19:24,629
community I along with everybody else

481
00:19:30,679 --> 00:19:28,049
quoted these four points but the very

482
00:19:34,339 --> 00:19:30,689
next line in the document everybody has

483
00:19:35,719 --> 00:19:34,349
has left out and the very next hold up

484
00:19:37,729 --> 00:19:35,729
before you get to that next line let's

485
00:19:41,239 --> 00:19:37,739
do a little cliffhanger here who was the

486
00:19:43,849 --> 00:19:41,249
intended audience for this memo when is

487
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:43,859
this memo when does this memo become

488
00:19:50,059 --> 00:19:46,559
public and what other evidence do we

489
00:19:52,849 --> 00:19:50,069
have that this was completely legitimate

490
00:19:55,579 --> 00:19:52,859
what other confirmations do we have from

491
00:19:57,799 --> 00:19:55,589
other individuals that this did in fact

492
00:20:01,909 --> 00:19:57,809
happen the way that Smith said it did

493
00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:01,919
okay well it was December 1950 to start

494
00:20:05,509 --> 00:20:04,289
with it wasn't Declassified Stanton

495
00:20:08,329 --> 00:20:05,519
Friedman was actually one of the people

496
00:20:11,989 --> 00:20:08,339
who forced it to be pushed out but it

497
00:20:14,329 --> 00:20:11,999
wasn't fully declassified until 1978 I

498
00:20:16,309 --> 00:20:14,339
believe it was so almost 30 years later

499
00:20:18,259 --> 00:20:16,319
that this thing was Declassified and

500
00:20:20,929 --> 00:20:18,269
what happened was that when Smith was

501
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:20,939
dying dying of cancer of the lower bowel

502
00:20:25,579 --> 00:20:22,799
he knew he was dying he told his wife

503
00:20:28,009 --> 00:20:25,589
get rid of the files so the files were

504
00:20:30,409 --> 00:20:28,019
held by his oldest son and they were

505
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:30,419
then moved to a researcher in Ottawa who

506
00:20:33,749 --> 00:20:31,690
already knew

507
00:20:36,389 --> 00:20:33,759
that this memo existed because Smith had

508
00:20:39,509 --> 00:20:36,399
a copy in his personal files so there

509
00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:39,519
was push these researchers who knew what

510
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:41,230
was in the files to get the Canadian

511
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:43,720
government to declassify the documents

512
00:20:48,509 --> 00:20:45,250
so when they finally Declassified the

513
00:20:50,430 --> 00:20:48,519
documents in 1978 this dot top secret

514
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:50,440
document became public now the way the

515
00:20:54,419 --> 00:20:51,970
government got out of it said well he

516
00:20:56,669 --> 00:20:54,429
didn't have rights to declassify hard to

517
00:20:58,289 --> 00:20:56,679
put top-secret on it and you know they

518
00:21:00,749 --> 00:20:58,299
they tried to find different ways to

519
00:21:02,639 --> 00:21:00,759
sort of invalidate the document but it

520
00:21:05,970 --> 00:21:02,649
is a valid document it is in the

521
00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:05,980
Canadian research libraries and and

522
00:21:09,210 --> 00:21:08,200
nobody denies that it that it wasn't

523
00:21:10,919 --> 00:21:09,220
written that it wasn't top-secret

524
00:21:12,029 --> 00:21:10,929
they're just sort of playing on the

525
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:12,039
edges of whether should have been

526
00:21:16,889 --> 00:21:13,840
top-secret to start with so this

527
00:21:18,450 --> 00:21:16,899
document is is there Smith writes it and

528
00:21:22,019 --> 00:21:18,460
he's writing it to the Kane government

529
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:22,029
and when we have confirmation from a US

530
00:21:27,869 --> 00:21:24,129
official who says what happens is

531
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:27,879
Stanton tracks down there's an interview

532
00:21:33,509 --> 00:21:30,190
that Smith does at the Kane Embassy with

533
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:33,519
a scientist dr. Roberts our Bakker who

534
00:21:37,740 --> 00:21:35,919
in the 1950s was a sort of a consultant

535
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:37,750
to the US military to the research and

536
00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:42,159
development board and in 1983 this after

537
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:44,289
the the document becomes public his

538
00:21:47,399 --> 00:21:46,090
personal Smith's personal files become

539
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:47,409
public and this interview this

540
00:21:50,850 --> 00:21:48,970
handwritten interview with dr. SAR

541
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:50,860
Barker which gives part of the material

542
00:21:53,369 --> 00:21:52,210
not all the material them top-secret

543
00:21:55,889 --> 00:21:53,379
remember but some of it

544
00:21:57,509 --> 00:21:55,899
and Stanton decides well let's see if

545
00:21:59,249 --> 00:21:57,519
this guy still life he finds the guy in

546
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:59,259
Florida he's still alive dr. Robert Shaw

547
00:22:02,940 --> 00:22:01,120
Walker and he talks to Robert Shaw

548
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:02,950
Bakker did you give this interview to

549
00:22:05,789 --> 00:22:04,450
Wilbur Smith and you say yeah I recall

550
00:22:08,909 --> 00:22:05,799
giving this interview at the Kane

551
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:08,919
embassy and it basically he says what

552
00:22:12,509 --> 00:22:10,720
was the background he said well I think

553
00:22:16,139 --> 00:22:12,519
one of the consultants in Washington at

554
00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:16,149
the Navy the Navy section I was called

555
00:22:19,230 --> 00:22:18,070
into a series of meetings at

556
00:22:20,669 --> 00:22:19,240
wright-patterson Air Force Base

557
00:22:23,009 --> 00:22:20,679
where they had a crashed flying saucer

558
00:22:24,299 --> 00:22:23,019
and they were briefing a bunch of

559
00:22:26,159 --> 00:22:24,309
high-ranking scientists at the

560
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:26,169
researchers all on board I didn't have

561
00:22:30,299 --> 00:22:28,210
time to go he was working on that the

562
00:22:31,049 --> 00:22:30,309
Canadian dew line project he didn't have

563
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:31,059
time to go

564
00:22:35,789 --> 00:22:33,250
but he started naming off all these

565
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:35,799
different people to Stanton who had gone

566
00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:39,970
and he named off dr. Bush of course he

567
00:22:45,420 --> 00:22:43,320
named off von Newman who was sort of the

568
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:45,430
initiator of the computer

569
00:22:50,430 --> 00:22:48,490
dr. von Braun he named off a number of

570
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:50,440
high-ranking scientists then he named

571
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:52,330
off one scientist who's still alive and

572
00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:54,090
that's kind of a kind of a long story

573
00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:56,260
dr. Eric Walker was the former president

574
00:23:00,180 --> 00:22:58,570
of Penn State University and we actually

575
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:00,190
go to him and he confirms a lot of this

576
00:23:04,350 --> 00:23:02,170
stuff so Sabich or does give

577
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:04,360
confirmation for the fact that he did

578
00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:06,010
tell Smith it was most highly classified

579
00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:07,960
subject the United States that flying

580
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:09,940
saucers were real all we know is we

581
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:11,170
didn't make them we don't know who made

582
00:23:16,590 --> 00:23:13,810
them and so it sets the basis for the

583
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:16,600
fact that Smith has not just connections

584
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:18,250
with people in the United States but he

585
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:20,290
has connections with the US government

586
00:23:26,430 --> 00:23:23,890
and and in fact his his son confirmed to

587
00:23:28,110 --> 00:23:26,440
me as a rumored story that at the end of

588
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:28,120
his life his father had told him that

589
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:33,130
yes he had actually gotten access to the

590
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:34,690
crash flying saucers showing a flight

591
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:36,310
crash flying saucer outside of

592
00:23:40,610 --> 00:23:38,410
Washington DC and he did see the bodies

593
00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:40,620
so Smith was at this very high-level

594
00:23:46,260 --> 00:23:44,140
classified area where he was actually

595
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:46,270
interaction between the u.s. and the

596
00:23:50,550 --> 00:23:48,250
Canadian government and we should add

597
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:50,560
that Wilbur Smith is someone that you

598
00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:52,810
have researched a fellow Canadian that

599
00:23:57,660 --> 00:23:55,000
you have researched extensively so you

600
00:23:59,490 --> 00:23:57,670
spent several years collecting as many

601
00:24:01,380 --> 00:23:59,500
of his notes and documents in

602
00:24:04,650 --> 00:24:01,390
interviewing family members and friends

603
00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:04,660
so it's really been a major interest

604
00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:07,150
area of yours is that correct yeah yeah

605
00:24:15,150 --> 00:24:11,800
and I have all his files which are for

606
00:24:17,910 --> 00:24:15,160
DVDs full was a lot of material but I

607
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:17,920
want to come back and unravel and get

608
00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:22,210
back to the next line in the memo so in

609
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:25,540
1951 Smith writes this this memo to the

610
00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:27,250
Qing government describing what he's

611
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:28,780
been told by officials in the United

612
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:30,910
States he talks about the UFO stuff

613
00:24:34,830 --> 00:24:32,410
which everybody quotes in the very next

614
00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:34,840
line everybody leaves out and I left it

615
00:24:40,290 --> 00:24:37,180
out for years to he said I was further

616
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:40,300
informed that US authorities and then

617
00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:42,880
you got to get that US authorities are

618
00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:45,400
investigating along quite a number of

619
00:24:51,390 --> 00:24:48,190
lines which might possibly be related to

620
00:24:53,070 --> 00:24:51,400
the saucers such as mental phenomena and

621
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:53,080
I gather they're not doing too well

622
00:24:58,140 --> 00:24:55,330
since they have indicated that if Canada

623
00:24:59,250 --> 00:24:58,150
is doing anything at all along the lines

624
00:25:01,500 --> 00:24:59,260
of geomagnetic

625
00:25:03,690 --> 00:25:01,510
would welcome a discussion with suitably

626
00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:03,700
accredited Canadians so he's basically

627
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:05,980
saying that they've got this connection

628
00:25:10,380 --> 00:25:08,170
with with mental phenomena and if

629
00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:10,390
there's anybody the inside Canada who's

630
00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:13,390
working on it if you get cleared to talk

631
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:15,460
on a classified level we're willing to

632
00:25:18,510 --> 00:25:16,690
talk to you because we're trying to

633
00:25:21,150 --> 00:25:18,520
figure this thing out and the key part

634
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:21,160
of this whole thing is that in 1950 no

635
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:22,510
matter what anybody in the UFO community

636
00:25:28,140 --> 00:25:25,450
wants to say there was no discussion

637
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:28,150
none whatsoever in any literature that

638
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:30,130
there was any interaction between the

639
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:33,370
aliens and human beings the the the

640
00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:36,250
first interaction that publicly been

641
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:38,950
made known was when the contactees which

642
00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:40,240
were people who were talking to the

643
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:43,000
blonds appeared in 1952 George Adamski

644
00:25:47,910 --> 00:25:45,250
there was a bunch of a bunch of them in

645
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:47,920
1952 that started to say we're talking

646
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:49,690
to aliens and we're having meetings with

647
00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:51,610
them and stuff Smith writes this memo

648
00:25:56,550 --> 00:25:54,190
two years before there is no discussion

649
00:25:58,830 --> 00:25:56,560
in UFO literature about an interaction

650
00:26:01,590 --> 00:25:58,840
whether it's talking to aliens or

651
00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:01,600
whether it's a telepathy and so the fact

652
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:03,220
that the important part of this whole

653
00:26:09,090 --> 00:26:06,130
thing is that in 1950 Smith is saying

654
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:09,100
the American authorities already know

655
00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:12,370
that mental phenomena is part of this of

656
00:26:17,340 --> 00:26:15,220
this a flying saucer phenomena the

657
00:26:18,930 --> 00:26:17,350
American government who will say right

658
00:26:21,270 --> 00:26:18,940
up to today

659
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:21,280
Obama released a statement just a couple

660
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:22,690
of months ago saying we have no evidence

661
00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:26,170
we we don't have anything and and here's

662
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:27,880
Smith saying in a top-secret memo which

663
00:26:32,550 --> 00:26:29,890
is not discussion about whether this is

664
00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:32,560
illegitimate the memo 1950 is already

665
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:34,840
saying the American authorities know

666
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:36,970
about the importance of mental phenomena

667
00:26:40,530 --> 00:26:38,860
associated with the flying saucers so

668
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:40,540
they've known the mental phenomena

669
00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:43,210
aspect right from day one so grant

670
00:26:49,890 --> 00:26:45,670
that's fascinating now make the

671
00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:49,900
connection for us for MKULTRA tell

672
00:26:54,330 --> 00:26:52,060
people a little bit about what what is

673
00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:54,340
MKULTRA particularly because it happens

674
00:27:00,900 --> 00:26:58,330
up there in Canada okay that the whole

675
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:00,910
MKULTRA and all the the related programs

676
00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:04,000
didn't become public until the mid 1970s

677
00:27:10,380 --> 00:27:07,900
and it became public in a big scandal in

678
00:27:13,149 --> 00:27:10,390
the United States and Richard Helms had

679
00:27:15,549 --> 00:27:13,159
been involved and when it first became

680
00:27:17,139 --> 00:27:15,559
public it had been sort of discovered

681
00:27:18,849 --> 00:27:17,149
immediately that the vast majority of

682
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:18,859
the documents have been destroyed and

683
00:27:25,060 --> 00:27:21,440
this was basically the CIA working on

684
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:25,070
mind-control and on trying to work on

685
00:27:32,019 --> 00:27:29,210
this aspect of using the mind as a

686
00:27:33,849 --> 00:27:32,029
weapon of war interrogating people

687
00:27:36,879 --> 00:27:33,859
finding out what the Russians were doing

688
00:27:38,589 --> 00:27:36,889
and all this or stuff and when you when

689
00:27:40,629 --> 00:27:38,599
you look back at the thing there's a

690
00:27:42,639 --> 00:27:40,639
this very significant meeting that takes

691
00:27:45,219 --> 00:27:42,649
place Smith writes this memo in December

692
00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:45,229
of 1950 and one of the people that's

693
00:27:50,979 --> 00:27:47,960
mentioned in the top secret memo is dr.

694
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:50,989
Oman silent who was the head of the

695
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:53,690
research board the military research

696
00:27:58,869 --> 00:27:56,690
board in Canada and Smith mentions him

697
00:28:00,190 --> 00:27:58,879
that he's briefing him as well he's

698
00:28:01,899 --> 00:28:00,200
writing it to the department transport

699
00:28:04,479 --> 00:28:01,909
but the Defense Department this Oman

700
00:28:07,419 --> 00:28:04,489
slant is involved I guess what I'm

701
00:28:09,580 --> 00:28:07,429
asking is don't we have to look at that

702
00:28:12,609 --> 00:28:09,590
a little bit differently now that we

703
00:28:14,169 --> 00:28:12,619
understand the Smith memo and the next

704
00:28:16,330 --> 00:28:14,179
line that you talked about because I

705
00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:16,340
understand the Russian connection you

706
00:28:21,729 --> 00:28:18,470
know we had Joe mechanical who was

707
00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:21,739
psychic spy number zero zero one at

708
00:28:26,109 --> 00:28:24,169
Stanford Research Institute as part of

709
00:28:28,869 --> 00:28:26,119
the Stargate program and we interviewed

710
00:28:31,419 --> 00:28:28,879
him and and and and we understand that

711
00:28:35,259 --> 00:28:31,429
there really was this perceived threat

712
00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:35,269
from the USSR but I think what what

713
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:37,190
would you bring to the table here is

714
00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:39,710
that there's this other element going on

715
00:28:46,149 --> 00:28:43,609
which is this UFO is an understanding

716
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:46,159
that the UFO phenomena is related to

717
00:28:50,649 --> 00:28:48,470
these mental phenomena and I think that

718
00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:50,659
that plays into this as well but maybe

719
00:28:54,489 --> 00:28:52,190
I'm taking it too far

720
00:28:56,409 --> 00:28:54,499
would you agree with that well I don't

721
00:28:59,589 --> 00:28:56,419
think we really get the UFO connection

722
00:29:02,379 --> 00:28:59,599
until later in the 50s 60s 70s I don't

723
00:29:04,779 --> 00:29:02,389
think you get the these pieces falling

724
00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:04,789
out like the MKULTRA that whole scandal

725
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:07,129
about the fact that they were the CIA

726
00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:09,590
was interested in the mind in in the met

727
00:29:14,979 --> 00:29:11,809
in the military aspects but it's not

728
00:29:16,629 --> 00:29:14,989
until later when I I get these other

729
00:29:20,379 --> 00:29:16,639
pieces that pop in that I had were

730
00:29:24,099 --> 00:29:20,389
always in my head that that sort of fit

731
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:24,109
in where it says the UFO connection is

732
00:29:26,730 --> 00:29:25,970
really important and the one was I

733
00:29:28,919 --> 00:29:26,740
mentioned

734
00:29:30,570 --> 00:29:28,929
Robert saw Bakker and he was giving

735
00:29:32,299 --> 00:29:30,580
material to Wilbur Smith and when

736
00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:32,309
Stanton interviewed him he says well

737
00:29:36,450 --> 00:29:34,870
who-who was there is it wasn't anybody

738
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:36,460
alive least your name mentioned all

739
00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:37,660
these guys who are dead he said well

740
00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:39,580
there's one guy from from Pennsylvania

741
00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:41,080
he was real arrogant he thought he knew

742
00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:43,030
everything he attended all the meetings

743
00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:44,980
and we tracked this guy down he turns

744
00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:46,990
out to be dr. Eric Walker who was former

745
00:29:52,110 --> 00:29:48,900
president of Penn State University and

746
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:52,120
he was for 15 years he was the chairman

747
00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:53,230
of the board of the Institute for

748
00:29:56,580 --> 00:29:55,030
Defense analysis which is the top

749
00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:56,590
military think-tank for the United

750
00:30:02,040 --> 00:29:59,470
States military he what he was the

751
00:30:04,860 --> 00:30:02,050
co-develop developer of the the homing

752
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:04,870
torpedo he was friends with Vannevar

753
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:07,260
Bush he had this incredible unbelievable

754
00:30:12,330 --> 00:30:10,410
background of you know military and

755
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:12,340
connections with presidents and stuff

756
00:30:17,370 --> 00:30:15,070
like this so when we go to him we're

757
00:30:18,660 --> 00:30:17,380
interviewing him as UFO researchers

758
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:18,670
we're not thinking about the mind we

759
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:20,080
couldn't care less about you know we had

760
00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:21,970
no connection whatsoever we're talking

761
00:30:26,490 --> 00:30:23,980
to him and we're trying to find out the

762
00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:26,500
supposed UFO group that runs the whole

763
00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:29,350
thing is the mj-12 we're asking

764
00:30:33,299 --> 00:30:31,030
questions on mj-12 did you have contact

765
00:30:35,220 --> 00:30:33,309
with the aliens how did the thing

766
00:30:37,290 --> 00:30:35,230
operate how did you cover up the UFO

767
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:37,300
thing and suddenly in the middle middle

768
00:30:40,410 --> 00:30:39,220
of one of these interviews in 1990 and

769
00:30:42,299 --> 00:30:40,420
he's interviewed for about eight years

770
00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:42,309
I'm sort of running this team of

771
00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:43,660
researchers around the world now I'm not

772
00:30:46,919 --> 00:30:45,340
talking to him there's people who say I

773
00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:46,929
can get Walker to talk okay here's his

774
00:30:51,150 --> 00:30:48,670
phone number and what we do is we take

775
00:30:52,919 --> 00:30:51,160
all the the interviews that are done

776
00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:52,929
with him we put him in a book and in

777
00:30:57,690 --> 00:30:54,910
1990 in the middle of one of these

778
00:30:59,580 --> 00:30:57,700
interviews he suddenly cuts off the

779
00:31:02,040 --> 00:30:59,590
conversation talking about hardware

780
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:02,050
about bodies and all his hearse and he

781
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:04,960
suddenly says how good is your sixth

782
00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:07,840
sense how much do you know about ESP and

783
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:09,550
the other guy goes well you know I don't

784
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:11,530
really it's not have interests to him I

785
00:31:16,169 --> 00:31:13,210
don't know what's going on and Walker

786
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:16,179
says then as unless you know about it

787
00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:19,360
and how to use it you will not be taken

788
00:31:22,740 --> 00:31:20,950
in because the question was about who's

789
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:22,750
running the group what's this mj-12

790
00:31:26,490 --> 00:31:24,730
how many people are on the group how are

791
00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:26,500
these people operating and he says

792
00:31:33,410 --> 00:31:30,070
unless you I know about ESP and how to

793
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:33,420
use it you would not be taken in by this

794
00:31:39,210 --> 00:31:36,610
mj-12 this overriding group that runs

795
00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:39,220
the UFO program only a few know about it

796
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:39,860
so

797
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:41,510
the and and we saw the interview and I

798
00:31:44,919 --> 00:31:42,890
put in the book we published the book in

799
00:31:48,669 --> 00:31:44,929
1990 we're about to republish the book

800
00:31:50,049 --> 00:31:48,679
we put it in this book in 1991 we never

801
00:31:52,539 --> 00:31:50,059
mentioned it the book we never brought

802
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:52,549
up the the this mention of the fact that

803
00:31:56,169 --> 00:31:54,890
that ESP was involved because it meant

804
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:56,179
nothing to us we were into the hardware

805
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:58,010
in the bodies and all this or stuff but

806
00:32:05,549 --> 00:32:00,799
he mentions this in 1990 and then in

807
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:05,559
1993 there's a related story about a

808
00:32:10,899 --> 00:32:08,000
conversation that that takes place with

809
00:32:14,019 --> 00:32:10,909
Ben rich Ben rich was the guy who ran

810
00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:14,029
skunk works over the the u2 the sr-71

811
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:16,070
the stealth fighter the stealth bomber

812
00:32:20,919 --> 00:32:18,470
they were all developed by what was

813
00:32:22,690 --> 00:32:20,929
called skunk works and Ben rich ran it

814
00:32:27,370 --> 00:32:22,700
and he would get a number of questions

815
00:32:30,370 --> 00:32:27,380
about was this UFO technology and he's

816
00:32:32,769 --> 00:32:30,380
giving a lecture in 1993 he's dying of

817
00:32:35,139 --> 00:32:32,779
cancer he gives a lecture at UCLA to a

818
00:32:37,570 --> 00:32:35,149
bunch of Engineers and he's talking and

819
00:32:40,389 --> 00:32:37,580
he says in in there he says we've got to

820
00:32:42,190 --> 00:32:40,399
eat eat the technology to take e.t home

821
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:42,200
he gives us lecture he finishes the

822
00:32:46,450 --> 00:32:44,330
lecture he's walking out and one of the

823
00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:46,460
engineers who's interested in UFOs runs

824
00:32:51,340 --> 00:32:48,590
after and he says to Ben rich he says

825
00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:51,350
Ben rich how are these things propelled

826
00:32:56,590 --> 00:32:54,380
how are UFOs propelled and Ben rich

827
00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:56,600
turns around and he says to him let me

828
00:33:01,690 --> 00:32:59,090
ask you a question how does ESP work and

829
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:01,700
the guy says well I mean it means that

830
00:33:05,950 --> 00:33:03,950
all points all points in time and space

831
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:05,960
are connected and been rich turns around

832
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:08,840
and says that's how they work and so

833
00:33:14,289 --> 00:33:12,399
here's this top guy in US military

834
00:33:17,889 --> 00:33:14,299
research who's saying

835
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:17,899
ESP that's how UFOs are propelled so you

836
00:33:24,129 --> 00:33:20,480
get these connections years later that

837
00:33:26,409 --> 00:33:24,139
basically put this together grant

838
00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:26,419
let me layer something else on top of

839
00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:28,190
here that I've heard you say that I

840
00:33:32,649 --> 00:33:30,260
think it's changed the way I think about

841
00:33:35,379 --> 00:33:32,659
this whole topic and I don't know to

842
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:35,389
what extent I fully fully agree with you

843
00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:39,200
but that's that that you look at the UFO

844
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:41,630
phenomena through a national security

845
00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:45,110
lens rather than as as a scientific

846
00:33:50,159 --> 00:33:47,960
phenomena you insist that we look at it

847
00:33:52,570 --> 00:33:50,169
from a national security perspective

848
00:33:54,430 --> 00:33:52,580
tell us what you mean by that

849
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:54,440
well let me clarify that I wrote an

850
00:33:57,550 --> 00:33:55,910
article it's on my website you go to my

851
00:34:00,220 --> 00:33:57,560
website on the right hand side you'll

852
00:34:01,780 --> 00:34:00,230
see articles I wrote an article on the I

853
00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:01,790
used to call 264 reasons the government

854
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:04,100
decided not to tell you the truth the

855
00:34:07,210 --> 00:34:05,330
number one reason is because it's

856
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:07,220
classified it's simply this is military

857
00:34:11,020 --> 00:34:09,590
technology if we can develop things that

858
00:34:13,930 --> 00:34:11,030
can fly around and nobody can capture

859
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:13,940
them if we can get this mind technology

860
00:34:21,010 --> 00:34:17,810
where we can go and grab the the head of

861
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:21,020
the Soviet Union or Russia and get into

862
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:23,450
his head and give him messages like

863
00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:25,610
that's happening with abductions and be

864
00:34:29,350 --> 00:34:27,260
back in Washington for lunch that's the

865
00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:29,360
kind of technology we want and let's

866
00:34:33,820 --> 00:34:32,000
slow down and talk about that because we

867
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:33,830
have to look at that from a historical

868
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:35,810
perspective hey that's always been

869
00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:37,760
priority number one for any nation state

870
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:41,240
is not only defense but offense whoever

871
00:34:47,740 --> 00:34:44,210
has the best weapon wins and wins

872
00:34:50,940 --> 00:34:47,750
decisively and their ideology and their

873
00:34:54,669 --> 00:34:50,950
whole culture advances so this is really

874
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:54,679
priority one for any state and we don't

875
00:34:59,260 --> 00:34:57,050
have to look back too far in our history

876
00:35:00,880 --> 00:34:59,270
for evidence of that right so you can't

877
00:35:04,810 --> 00:35:00,890
really make that point strong enough

878
00:35:07,180 --> 00:35:04,820
that that this would be the top priority

879
00:35:09,550 --> 00:35:07,190
for any kind of new technology

880
00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:09,560
yeah it's called military lead time that

881
00:35:14,890 --> 00:35:12,260
if you have a weapon and you suddenly

882
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:14,900
decide to use it in a war how long did

883
00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:16,310
it take you to develop if it takes you

884
00:35:20,410 --> 00:35:18,080
60 years to develop it

885
00:35:22,030 --> 00:35:20,420
you suddenly use it in a war the other

886
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:22,040
the other side can go to their leader

887
00:35:24,970 --> 00:35:23,810
and say well we're gonna fight this off

888
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:24,980
and we'll Holland's gonna take well

889
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:27,050
about 60 years you know right now from

890
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:29,390
the Iraq war I mean you can wipe out

891
00:35:33,340 --> 00:35:31,250
everybody else's tanks in about two two

892
00:35:35,230 --> 00:35:33,350
weeks I mean if you have a weapon it's

893
00:35:37,930 --> 00:35:35,240
over but there's the other aspect of

894
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:37,940
this this this whole cover-up thing the

895
00:35:40,930 --> 00:35:39,650
sixty-four reasons the one is the

896
00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:40,940
government is covering up for their

897
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:43,070
reasons military security and the fact

898
00:35:45,940 --> 00:35:44,450
that you know we're paranoid and the

899
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:45,950
Chinese and everybody and everything the

900
00:35:50,950 --> 00:35:47,570
world is trying to get us and we have to

901
00:35:53,050 --> 00:35:50,960
have this security and and defense

902
00:35:55,420 --> 00:35:53,060
to protect the United States of America

903
00:35:57,940 --> 00:35:55,430
but the other aspect is the aspect that

904
00:35:59,890 --> 00:35:57,950
connects with the with the mental

905
00:36:01,960 --> 00:35:59,900
phenomena and that is that the aliens

906
00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:01,970
are covering up as well the aliens could

907
00:36:05,770 --> 00:36:03,470
land on the White House lawn anytime

908
00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:05,780
they want they could come on to the TV

909
00:36:09,970 --> 00:36:07,820
and announce themselves they don't and

910
00:36:12,370 --> 00:36:09,980
there is a cover-up by the aliens and

911
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:12,380
that's what I say is that this whole if

912
00:36:16,210 --> 00:36:13,730
you take a look at what's happening and

913
00:36:18,940 --> 00:36:16,220
what I say the UFO community is missed

914
00:36:21,490 --> 00:36:18,950
is that in the euro in the UFO history

915
00:36:23,860 --> 00:36:21,500
if you look it is like the aliens are

916
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:23,870
turning the pages of a book and there's

917
00:36:28,690 --> 00:36:26,330
just one thing after another 1947 to

918
00:36:31,210 --> 00:36:28,700
1952 they do nothing except fly around

919
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:31,220
and let people see them 1952 they start

920
00:36:35,650 --> 00:36:32,240
to talk to people

921
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:35,660
1961 they start abducting people 1967

922
00:36:41,590 --> 00:36:37,760
the cattle mutilation stuff starts does

923
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:41,600
not start before 67 1982 the crop circle

924
00:36:46,510 --> 00:36:44,480
starts that you get the the aspect of

925
00:36:49,210 --> 00:36:46,520
people starting to remember

926
00:36:50,890 --> 00:36:49,220
various parts of abduction stuff that

927
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:50,900
they didn't remember in the 60s they're

928
00:36:54,730 --> 00:36:52,880
remembering different parts now and it's

929
00:36:56,950 --> 00:36:54,740
almost as if the aliens are just slowly

930
00:36:59,920 --> 00:36:56,960
turning the pages of a book and we are

931
00:37:01,930 --> 00:36:59,930
going through the way they want this

932
00:37:04,090 --> 00:37:01,940
thing to be unraveled they could have

933
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:04,100
told us 1947 was going on but they're

934
00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:06,710
just slowly taking us along a path and

935
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:08,870
that that's what is so important about

936
00:37:14,110 --> 00:37:11,090
this mental aspect thing is that it's if

937
00:37:15,970 --> 00:37:14,120
you take a look at the UFO history and

938
00:37:17,710 --> 00:37:15,980
you look at stuff you see that the

939
00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:17,720
things that are happening now did not

940
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:20,540
happen I was in 1975 it was a completely

941
00:37:24,580 --> 00:37:22,640
different world the things that happened

942
00:37:26,410 --> 00:37:24,590
then don't happen now ground trace for

943
00:37:28,690 --> 00:37:26,420
example we used to hear stories about

944
00:37:30,070 --> 00:37:28,700
aliens landing ground traces little

945
00:37:32,380 --> 00:37:30,080
aliens walking around with little rods

946
00:37:34,930 --> 00:37:32,390
outside their aircrafts it does not

947
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:34,940
happen anymore there are no reports used

948
00:37:39,550 --> 00:37:37,610
to be hundreds a year there is none it's

949
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:39,560
like the aliens are taking us down a

950
00:37:44,050 --> 00:37:42,290
path and this mental phenomena is part

951
00:37:46,510 --> 00:37:44,060
of what they're doing and there are some

952
00:37:48,850 --> 00:37:46,520
very incredible stories inside the UFO

953
00:37:50,620 --> 00:37:48,860
community that show that they're there

954
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:50,630
they are doing this kind of stuff for

955
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:53,210
example let me give you one the

956
00:37:58,540 --> 00:37:55,520
Rendlesham forest story is one of the

957
00:38:01,420 --> 00:37:58,550
top stories in in UFO and that's the

958
00:38:04,090 --> 00:38:01,430
story about a craft landing at a US Air

959
00:38:06,870 --> 00:38:04,100
Force Base in Britain and the people

960
00:38:10,030 --> 00:38:06,880
going out and touching the craft and

961
00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:10,040
seeing this stuff and all sorts of

962
00:38:13,810 --> 00:38:11,380
reports and stuff like this and

963
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:13,820
Penniston James Penniston who's one of

964
00:38:19,089 --> 00:38:17,210
the main people who was at the site gets

965
00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:19,099
near the craft and he touches

966
00:38:22,779 --> 00:38:21,140
Kraft and he's been interviewed and he

967
00:38:24,910 --> 00:38:22,789
talks about this message that he gets

968
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:24,920
and it's a it's a message that comes in

969
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:27,650
zeros and ones it's and they they later

970
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:30,079
put the message together it's a 14 page

971
00:38:35,349 --> 00:38:33,650
long message of zeros and ones and he

972
00:38:36,549 --> 00:38:35,359
gets this message in it it has this

973
00:38:39,009 --> 00:38:36,559
interpretation I want to get any

974
00:38:40,989 --> 00:38:39,019
interpretation he's asked but he's that

975
00:38:44,140 --> 00:38:40,999
interviewed about a year and a half ago

976
00:38:47,469 --> 00:38:44,150
and he said and he was asked is 14 page

977
00:38:48,789 --> 00:38:47,479
meshes of zeros and ones you you had

978
00:38:50,229 --> 00:38:48,799
this message you had to put it down

979
00:38:52,779 --> 00:38:50,239
you've got to instantly in your head

980
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:52,789
when you touch the craft could you do it

981
00:38:57,700 --> 00:38:55,609
again and Penniston said yes I could

982
00:39:00,519 --> 00:38:57,710
write the message again 14 pages of

983
00:39:01,989 --> 00:39:00,529
zeros and ones and he can actually redo

984
00:39:04,299 --> 00:39:01,999
that message not just an ordinary

985
00:39:07,539 --> 00:39:04,309
message from an alien incredible message

986
00:39:10,809 --> 00:39:07,549
that is 32 years later he can still

987
00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:10,819
remember the message every dot every 0

988
00:39:15,130 --> 00:39:13,160
in that message for 14 pages that's

989
00:39:18,549 --> 00:39:15,140
that's an incredible thing and that's

990
00:39:20,170 --> 00:39:18,559
the aliens giving something to us that

991
00:39:22,509 --> 00:39:20,180
is jut not just a message is an

992
00:39:24,729 --> 00:39:22,519
incredible message or this story of the

993
00:39:28,479 --> 00:39:24,739
most famous abductee in in UFO history

994
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:28,489
now his is Stan Romanick and a lot of

995
00:39:35,529 --> 00:39:32,089
people will say this guy's a hoaxer one

996
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:35,539
of the things that he's incredibly known

997
00:39:40,839 --> 00:39:38,089
for is getting these very complex

998
00:39:42,190 --> 00:39:40,849
formulas mathematical formulas that he

999
00:39:43,630 --> 00:39:42,200
just suddenly gets up into Malaysia I

1000
00:39:45,459 --> 00:39:43,640
was writing these formulas under

1001
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:45,469
hypnosis he writes these very complex

1002
00:39:50,170 --> 00:39:47,599
formulas and one of the formulas was a

1003
00:39:52,299 --> 00:39:50,180
formula by one of the top people who was

1004
00:39:54,910 --> 00:39:52,309
involved in the mind control in the

1005
00:39:59,079 --> 00:39:54,920
remote viewing program dr. help put off

1006
00:40:01,779 --> 00:39:59,089
who ran the SR I program for 30 years or

1007
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:01,789
25 years for the for the CIA one of his

1008
00:40:06,219 --> 00:40:03,710
formulas he's gotten out of the my the

1009
00:40:08,049 --> 00:40:06,229
the mind aspect the remote doing he's

1010
00:40:10,029 --> 00:40:08,059
gotten into the UFO thing into

1011
00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:10,039
zero-point energy one of the formulas

1012
00:40:14,859 --> 00:40:13,160
that Stan Romanick writes is one of the

1013
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:14,869
formulas that had only been published

1014
00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:17,210
one time in the world and it was a

1015
00:40:23,799 --> 00:40:19,700
formula by hell put off on zero-point

1016
00:40:26,319 --> 00:40:23,809
energy and this abductee gets in so you

1017
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:26,329
get these not just ordinary messages

1018
00:40:30,430 --> 00:40:27,890
you're getting these things as if the

1019
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:30,440
aliens are putting this in here and and

1020
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:32,960
actually taking us along a path

1021
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:37,490
and giving us stuff that we would not

1022
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:38,930
have gotten on our own and they are

1023
00:40:42,460 --> 00:40:40,910
leading us so that the cover they're

1024
00:40:45,970 --> 00:40:42,470
covering it up but they're gradually

1025
00:40:48,579 --> 00:40:45,980
releasing it and now I'll say the the

1026
00:40:51,609 --> 00:40:48,589
disclosure when we finally find out

1027
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:51,619
what's going on with UFOs is when the

1028
00:40:57,339 --> 00:40:55,010
aliens tell us yeah and why there's just

1029
00:40:59,440 --> 00:40:57,349
so much there to pull apart I just can't

1030
00:41:02,320 --> 00:40:59,450
leave that without touching on one point

1031
00:41:05,349 --> 00:41:02,330
that I think you make and that's that to

1032
00:41:07,630 --> 00:41:05,359
understand the government deception and

1033
00:41:09,579 --> 00:41:07,640
the government cover-up one of the

1034
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:09,589
things you bring to the table is to say

1035
00:41:16,060 --> 00:41:13,609
it doesn't have to be masterminded if

1036
00:41:18,099 --> 00:41:16,070
you just look at it from the national

1037
00:41:21,130 --> 00:41:18,109
security lens you can have a lot of

1038
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:21,140
people that can just be set off to do a

1039
00:41:28,530 --> 00:41:25,130
task that's purely national security and

1040
00:41:31,060 --> 00:41:28,540
it can wind up looking very nefarious

1041
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,070
from a high level but when in fact

1042
00:41:34,930 --> 00:41:32,960
they're just like hey we have to make

1043
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:34,940
sure that we're on top of this kind of

1044
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:37,490
thing but let me leave that for a minute

1045
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:39,890
because again there's a lot to pull

1046
00:41:46,510 --> 00:41:43,010
apart there and what I really want to do

1047
00:41:47,589 --> 00:41:46,520
is circle back around now and talk about

1048
00:41:50,589 --> 00:41:47,599
some of the things that you're talking

1049
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:50,599
about from these other glimpses we're

1050
00:41:55,750 --> 00:41:53,570
getting of expanded human consciousness

1051
00:41:57,490 --> 00:41:55,760
and see how they might fit together

1052
00:42:00,370 --> 00:41:57,500
because then I think we can't really

1053
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:00,380
even talk about the aliens versus us and

1054
00:42:04,210 --> 00:42:02,930
this time versus that time I think all

1055
00:42:06,970 --> 00:42:04,220
those things start to get a little bit

1056
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:06,980
fuzzy and the person I bring into this

1057
00:42:11,260 --> 00:42:09,050
discussion I mentioned earlier is

1058
00:42:13,540 --> 00:42:11,270
geomechanical who we had a chance to

1059
00:42:16,450 --> 00:42:13,550
interview a few months ago and of course

1060
00:42:19,990 --> 00:42:16,460
is psychics by number zero zero one and

1061
00:42:21,609 --> 00:42:20,000
when one of the little anecdotes that he

1062
00:42:25,180 --> 00:42:21,619
told that I thought was just fascinating

1063
00:42:27,370 --> 00:42:25,190
is so he sits down with how put off at

1064
00:42:29,230 --> 00:42:27,380
Stanford Research Institute and as you

1065
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:29,240
just said Howell has been hired by the

1066
00:42:35,230 --> 00:42:33,200
CIA to figure out this remote secret spy

1067
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:35,240
thing and how we can spy on the Russians

1068
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:40,130
using psychics and his file he looks

1069
00:42:44,290 --> 00:42:41,930
over at his file that they unsealed that

1070
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:44,300
it's totally secret no one can get into

1071
00:42:49,810 --> 00:42:46,250
it and there is a cop

1072
00:42:52,089 --> 00:42:49,820
of Raymond Moody's life afterlife book

1073
00:42:55,390 --> 00:42:52,099
and the reason why this is relevant is

1074
00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:55,400
because geomechanical has had a very

1075
00:43:01,330 --> 00:42:58,970
profound near-death experience while

1076
00:43:03,849 --> 00:43:01,340
he's an intelligence officer for the

1077
00:43:05,470 --> 00:43:03,859
United States and Germany and this near

1078
00:43:07,450 --> 00:43:05,480
endless near-death experience

1079
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:07,460
he leaves his body in us having an

1080
00:43:12,849 --> 00:43:09,710
out-of-body experience and then goes to

1081
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:12,859
heaven and encounters this being that

1082
00:43:17,890 --> 00:43:15,500
for any other way we talk about it is

1083
00:43:21,430 --> 00:43:17,900
God and and makes this connection at

1084
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:21,440
this level of consciousness that is

1085
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:25,310
clearly way above our level of

1086
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:28,130
consciousness and gets this mental

1087
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:30,410
download again so you're talking about

1088
00:43:37,630 --> 00:43:33,290
the Rendlesham forest case you look at

1089
00:43:39,849 --> 00:43:37,640
near-death experiencers and or many

1090
00:43:41,530 --> 00:43:39,859
other spiritually transformative

1091
00:43:42,870 --> 00:43:41,540
experiences that have been reported

1092
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:42,880
throughout time whether they're

1093
00:43:49,780 --> 00:43:47,210
Kundalini or Christian experiences but

1094
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:49,790
often there's this download of

1095
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:52,880
information that just gets Rush put into

1096
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:55,040
the brain and sometimes they can't even

1097
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:57,770
repeat it when they get back but there

1098
00:44:04,660 --> 00:44:01,119
is this higher order of consciousness so

1099
00:44:07,660 --> 00:44:04,670
don't we have to start trying to make

1100
00:44:13,390 --> 00:44:07,670
that connection to and try and see how

1101
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:13,400
the whole thing fits together yes but

1102
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:15,609
it's still it's still a big package of

1103
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:16,880
unknowns

1104
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:18,770
I mean you sort of get the connection

1105
00:44:24,190 --> 00:44:20,570
that that you can get these downloads

1106
00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:24,200
that the consciousness is is an

1107
00:44:28,750 --> 00:44:26,300
extremely integral part that it may be

1108
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:28,760
the whole thing that consciousness like

1109
00:44:36,190 --> 00:44:32,450
the Eastern philosophies the whole thing

1110
00:44:37,690 --> 00:44:36,200
we in the Western world's science and I

1111
00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:37,700
have some promise of science always say

1112
00:44:40,990 --> 00:44:39,080
science is not there to solve this

1113
00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:41,000
problem for us because science is

1114
00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:43,359
basically if you take a look there are a

1115
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:47,270
John Alexander who's you know this sort

1116
00:44:53,290 --> 00:44:49,970
of high-level military guy who's gotten

1117
00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:53,300
into the mind and into UFOs Nisour stuff

1118
00:44:57,310 --> 00:44:55,580
he he always mentions the fact that in

1119
00:45:00,050 --> 00:44:57,320
the National Academy of Sciences the

1120
00:45:02,930 --> 00:45:00,060
higher the level you get of science

1121
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:02,940
the more they disbelieve any sort of

1122
00:45:07,550 --> 00:45:05,090
phenomenology whether it be UFOs or

1123
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:07,560
mental phenomena or remote viewing stuff

1124
00:45:12,110 --> 00:45:09,510
like that and at the National Academy of

1125
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:12,120
Sciences level only four percent of the

1126
00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:14,520
people believe in phenomenology they

1127
00:45:18,740 --> 00:45:17,220
will have nothing to do with it and so

1128
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:18,750
basically you have basically it's like

1129
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:22,170
atheist phenomenology atheists that in

1130
00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:23,760
in the UFO community always wants the

1131
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:25,470
scientists sort of run the program and I

1132
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:27,330
say no keep them out of it because they

1133
00:45:31,940 --> 00:45:29,610
they're they're tainted by sort of a

1134
00:45:35,300 --> 00:45:31,950
Christian religion where everything is

1135
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,310
like a material that you have a God with

1136
00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:37,200
a beer and we're gonna go to heaven with

1137
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:39,000
streets paved of gold and stuff and I

1138
00:45:42,590 --> 00:45:40,290
think you have to move away from that

1139
00:45:45,260 --> 00:45:42,600
into sort of an Eastern philosophy thing

1140
00:45:46,940 --> 00:45:45,270
but as I say I'm one you might have

1141
00:45:49,550 --> 00:45:46,950
Colin Andrews you have Steven Greer you

1142
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:49,560
have you have maybe a dozen people in

1143
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:51,330
the UFO community who believe strongly

1144
00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:54,690
that the consciousness is a basic core

1145
00:45:58,670 --> 00:45:56,910
of this phenomena the rest of them would

1146
00:45:59,690 --> 00:45:58,680
say this is absolutely nonsense this is

1147
00:46:02,060 --> 00:45:59,700
this is crazy

1148
00:46:03,410 --> 00:46:02,070
this is nuts and bolts so don't talk to

1149
00:46:06,740 --> 00:46:03,420
me about this consciousness stuff it's

1150
00:46:08,930 --> 00:46:06,750
nuts it's not well received in the UFO

1151
00:46:11,060 --> 00:46:08,940
community it's a very new aspect and I'm

1152
00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:11,070
saying in the UFO community now we

1153
00:46:15,380 --> 00:46:12,990
better start taking a look seriously at

1154
00:46:18,170 --> 00:46:15,390
this as nutty as it may have appeared in

1155
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:18,180
the 1950s this is what's going to give

1156
00:46:22,370 --> 00:46:20,730
us the answer to what is going on here

1157
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:22,380
if you start looking at the nature of

1158
00:46:26,690 --> 00:46:24,480
consciousness the nature of the universe

1159
00:46:29,690 --> 00:46:26,700
is it really material universe how does

1160
00:46:34,270 --> 00:46:29,700
it work this entanglement properties all

1161
00:46:36,890 --> 00:46:34,280
these advanced physical physics ideas

1162
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:36,900
but we are very very far away I don't

1163
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:38,310
think we really understand very much

1164
00:46:43,010 --> 00:46:40,770
right well of course we don't that you

1165
00:46:45,620 --> 00:46:43,020
know grant it's interesting what you say

1166
00:46:48,950 --> 00:46:45,630
because when you take even a small step

1167
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:48,960
back from the UFO phenomena as we've

1168
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:50,850
talked about here it becomes obvious

1169
00:46:56,180 --> 00:46:54,090
that consciousness and this extended

1170
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:56,190
human consciousness or alien

1171
00:47:01,300 --> 00:46:58,530
consciousness is central to it so it's

1172
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:01,310
it's again funny that there's this

1173
00:47:07,820 --> 00:47:04,560
controversy within your community about

1174
00:47:09,650 --> 00:47:07,830
a phenomena that jumps right out at you

1175
00:47:12,170 --> 00:47:09,660
from all the different angles that we've

1176
00:47:13,890 --> 00:47:12,180
talked about and I'll tell you from my

1177
00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:13,900
perspective and we've been at

1178
00:47:19,380 --> 00:47:17,140
the extended human consciousness work of

1179
00:47:22,380 --> 00:47:19,390
others through this show for a number of

1180
00:47:24,770 --> 00:47:22,390
years that the next step is the

1181
00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:24,780
spiritual aspect and the

1182
00:47:29,010 --> 00:47:26,430
parapsychologists let's say the

1183
00:47:31,260 --> 00:47:29,020
parapsychology and the Sai community

1184
00:47:33,110 --> 00:47:31,270
that we've talked to a lot here if I

1185
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:33,120
could roll in also the near-death

1186
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:35,770
experience science community or the

1187
00:47:41,370 --> 00:47:38,170
out-of-body experience science community

1188
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:41,380
all those have a similar blind spot in

1189
00:47:46,590 --> 00:47:43,330
that they want to look at consciousness

1190
00:47:49,650 --> 00:47:46,600
and extended human consciousness but

1191
00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:49,660
they always have this kind of soft spot

1192
00:47:54,690 --> 00:47:53,140
for scientific materialism and they wind

1193
00:47:56,460 --> 00:47:54,700
up saying some of the same things that

1194
00:47:58,710 --> 00:47:56,470
you have it and that well we haven't

1195
00:48:00,330 --> 00:47:58,720
understood it or we don't understand it

1196
00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:00,340
completely and all the rest of that and

1197
00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:03,310
and I really have been kind of pushing

1198
00:48:08,550 --> 00:48:05,110
things in another direction and that's

1199
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:08,560
that all the reports of this extended

1200
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:11,650
consciousness we talk about very quickly

1201
00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:14,770
get to this spiritual connection and I'm

1202
00:48:19,740 --> 00:48:16,900
not talking about it from my personal

1203
00:48:23,820 --> 00:48:19,750
spirituality I'm just talking about it

1204
00:48:26,610 --> 00:48:23,830
as a core part of the phenomena a core

1205
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:26,620
part of the experience I mean Joe

1206
00:48:33,450 --> 00:48:30,130
mechanical who is deep deep in this

1207
00:48:37,470 --> 00:48:33,460
stuff he doesn't talk about his

1208
00:48:40,620 --> 00:48:37,480
near-death experience as being just a

1209
00:48:43,740 --> 00:48:40,630
mental experience he talks about it

1210
00:48:46,620 --> 00:48:43,750
being a spiritual union with a

1211
00:48:50,130 --> 00:48:46,630
consciousness that is of a higher order

1212
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:50,140
and from his perception is of a much

1213
00:48:57,300 --> 00:48:53,770
much much higher order and you know that

1214
00:49:00,150 --> 00:48:57,310
may be offensive or upset people who who

1215
00:49:01,790 --> 00:49:00,160
are strong atheists and as you point out

1216
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:01,800
there which is really more of an

1217
00:49:06,810 --> 00:49:05,050
anti-christian thing but yet I don't I'm

1218
00:49:10,020 --> 00:49:06,820
not talking about anyone's personal

1219
00:49:12,570 --> 00:49:10,030
spiritual beliefs or personal religious

1220
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:12,580
beliefs I'm just saying it's see this

1221
00:49:19,550 --> 00:49:15,970
spiritual aspect is clearly a core part

1222
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:19,560
of this phenomena and I just wonder if

1223
00:49:26,250 --> 00:49:23,530
anyone in the UFO research community has

1224
00:49:27,180 --> 00:49:26,260
gotten there I think John Mack was kind

1225
00:49:30,740 --> 00:49:27,190
of headed there

1226
00:49:33,089 --> 00:49:30,750
but John Mac of course Harvard

1227
00:49:35,250 --> 00:49:33,099
psychologist who got interested in the

1228
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:35,260
abduction phenomena and did a lot of

1229
00:49:42,740 --> 00:49:39,490
research in talking to abductees and

1230
00:49:46,220 --> 00:49:42,750
came to the conclusion that that was

1231
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:46,230
psycho-spiritual so where has that whole

1232
00:49:52,109 --> 00:49:51,250
line of research gone within the UFO

1233
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:52,119
community

1234
00:49:58,470 --> 00:49:55,210
oh absolutely there's a division there

1235
00:50:00,720 --> 00:49:58,480
but the what I always sort of point out

1236
00:50:02,430 --> 00:50:00,730
is it's it comes down to the male and

1237
00:50:04,319 --> 00:50:02,440
female thing if you go to I know you've

1238
00:50:06,990 --> 00:50:04,329
been UFO conferences but if you go to

1239
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:07,000
UFO conferences you'll see a real sort

1240
00:50:10,770 --> 00:50:08,770
of separation between men and women

1241
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:10,780
manner into the hardware they're into

1242
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:13,690
the technology how does this thing fly

1243
00:50:18,089 --> 00:50:15,760
worse it from I'll so stuff and if you

1244
00:50:20,010 --> 00:50:18,099
take a look at women they are into the

1245
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:20,020
spiritual aspect to the thing we got to

1246
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:21,310
take a look at what the women are doing

1247
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:23,200
what the men are doing and that it is a

1248
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:24,970
unity of the two but right now it's

1249
00:50:28,290 --> 00:50:26,770
still a separation you have the men who

1250
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:28,300
are into the hardware and you have the

1251
00:50:34,290 --> 00:50:30,130
women who were into the the sort of the

1252
00:50:36,750 --> 00:50:34,300
spiritual the experiences of people and

1253
00:50:40,260 --> 00:50:36,760
they will go a lot farther in in in

1254
00:50:42,690 --> 00:50:40,270
looking at the abduction experience as

1255
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:42,700
being this sort of a almost a spiritual

1256
00:50:48,660 --> 00:50:45,040
experience but if you talk to men you'll

1257
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:48,670
talk to Robert Collins and his abduction

1258
00:50:53,010 --> 00:50:51,010
experiences it's there they're evil

1259
00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:53,020
they're here we have to try to fight

1260
00:50:57,390 --> 00:50:55,089
them off and so you have this use the

1261
00:50:59,280 --> 00:50:57,400
men who are basically saying it's an

1262
00:51:01,050 --> 00:50:59,290
evil type thing it's a national-security

1263
00:51:03,660 --> 00:51:01,060
thing we got to fight it and the women

1264
00:51:05,490 --> 00:51:03,670
are at that sort of a higher level and

1265
00:51:07,530 --> 00:51:05,500
there is a real division inside the UFO

1266
00:51:10,230 --> 00:51:07,540
community the reality I think is going

1267
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:10,240
to fall where you describe it that it is

1268
00:51:14,130 --> 00:51:11,650
going to be more of a spiritual

1269
00:51:17,220 --> 00:51:14,140
experience we're sort of influenced by

1270
00:51:20,250 --> 00:51:17,230
the government that everybody's an enemy

1271
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:20,260
and it all comes down to us versus them

1272
00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:21,880
so we see the aliens you see all the

1273
00:51:25,950 --> 00:51:24,310
latest UFO movies as always you know the

1274
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:25,960
great Americans bring in freedom and

1275
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:27,520
democracy to the world fighting off

1276
00:51:30,809 --> 00:51:28,960
these evil aliens who are trying to take

1277
00:51:32,339 --> 00:51:30,819
over the world whereas that's not what I

1278
00:51:34,109 --> 00:51:32,349
think it is and the aliens wanted to

1279
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:34,119
take over and destroys the could have

1280
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:36,250
done it a hundred years ago why would

1281
00:51:40,410 --> 00:51:38,050
they wait it is not it's more of a

1282
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:40,420
spiritual development of the

1283
00:51:44,850 --> 00:51:43,210
earth at their pace as the unfold

1284
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:44,860
distinct for us and that women have

1285
00:51:49,350 --> 00:51:47,050
already caught on to how this works one

1286
00:51:51,090 --> 00:51:49,360
last area I'd like to get into and it's

1287
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:51,100
been great talking I appreciate all the

1288
00:51:55,770 --> 00:51:53,350
time you've spent on this you obviously

1289
00:51:57,570 --> 00:51:55,780
have a not only a passion for this but

1290
00:52:00,630 --> 00:51:57,580
you've matched it with a deep deep

1291
00:52:02,730 --> 00:52:00,640
knowledge and I really respect and

1292
00:52:06,170 --> 00:52:02,740
admire the way that you've gone about

1293
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:06,180
researching this and filling this

1294
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:09,850
unexplainable void that we have out

1295
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:13,210
there in terms of why an independent

1296
00:52:19,980 --> 00:52:16,170
researcher like you has to be filing

1297
00:52:22,830 --> 00:52:19,990
hundreds of FOIA requests and gathering

1298
00:52:25,650 --> 00:52:22,840
and publishing this data while we have

1299
00:52:29,460 --> 00:52:25,660
this huge apparatus in the media that is

1300
00:52:31,230 --> 00:52:29,470
just completely blind to it but let me

1301
00:52:34,620 --> 00:52:31,240
get off of that pedestal and I want to

1302
00:52:36,510 --> 00:52:34,630
talk about the psychedelic connection

1303
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:36,520
because another guest we've had on this

1304
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:36,970
show

1305
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:40,300
is dr. Rick Strassman who was at the

1306
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:42,880
University of New Mexico and as far as I

1307
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:45,760
know is the only researcher who was

1308
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:48,310
given permission to study the effects of

1309
00:52:52,650 --> 00:52:49,330
DMT

1310
00:52:55,230 --> 00:52:52,660
on subjects so he gathered up a bunch of

1311
00:52:59,400 --> 00:52:55,240
students there at New Mexico and gave

1312
00:53:03,240 --> 00:52:59,410
him rather high doses of DMT and they

1313
00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:03,250
saw not only aliens but fairies and

1314
00:53:11,130 --> 00:53:07,180
other independent entities that seemed

1315
00:53:14,850 --> 00:53:11,140
to operate in this other realm and and

1316
00:53:17,220 --> 00:53:14,860
of course this work with psychedelics is

1317
00:53:19,890 --> 00:53:17,230
mirrored by many other researchers and

1318
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:19,900
anyone can go and Google Terence Mckenna

1319
00:53:25,770 --> 00:53:22,210
and you can get all sorts of interesting

1320
00:53:29,130 --> 00:53:25,780
ideas about the connection here but what

1321
00:53:31,050 --> 00:53:29,140
are your thoughts on what the

1322
00:53:33,330 --> 00:53:31,060
psychedelic community and the

1323
00:53:35,250 --> 00:53:33,340
psychedelic research and what we found

1324
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:35,260
out what's your thoughts on how that

1325
00:53:45,330 --> 00:53:42,370
might connect to all this as you're

1326
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:45,340
describing it sort of like these the the

1327
00:53:49,050 --> 00:53:47,290
small percentage of reality that we

1328
00:53:51,930 --> 00:53:49,060
really understand that when you get into

1329
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:51,940
these different states of mind that

1330
00:53:55,470 --> 00:53:53,650
everything's sort of changes

1331
00:53:59,420 --> 00:53:55,480
I really don't have much of an opinion

1332
00:54:02,670 --> 00:53:59,430
except that it is it just shows how

1333
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:02,680
limited our knowledge of reality is that

1334
00:54:06,809 --> 00:54:05,440
we really are just starting out and that

1335
00:54:09,859 --> 00:54:06,819
you're probably going to need another

1336
00:54:12,150 --> 00:54:09,869
you know 30 years of experiments and

1337
00:54:14,460 --> 00:54:12,160
somebody getting an insight on a new

1338
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:14,470
experiment that will sort of nail down

1339
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:15,910
what's actually going on there right

1340
00:54:20,609 --> 00:54:17,770
what I think a lot of folks don't

1341
00:54:24,750 --> 00:54:20,619
realize is that the materialism in

1342
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:24,760
science mirrors the materialism in our

1343
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:29,410
culture so our materialistic society and

1344
00:54:34,710 --> 00:54:32,319
how we're materialist and how George

1345
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:34,720
Bush says don't worry about the Iraq war

1346
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:38,559
just go shopping the connection is real

1347
00:54:45,120 --> 00:54:41,410
it's it's not some abstract connection

1348
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:45,130
it's real because it's only in a world

1349
00:54:48,839 --> 00:54:48,010
that you construct where it's just about

1350
00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:48,849
matter

1351
00:54:54,510 --> 00:54:51,250
it's about goods it's about survival

1352
00:54:57,059 --> 00:54:54,520
that you're able to rationally do these

1353
00:54:59,970 --> 00:54:57,069
things to gather things and then go bomb

1354
00:55:02,039 --> 00:54:59,980
other people if you have this expanded

1355
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:02,049
view that says we're all somehow

1356
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:03,250
connected and we don't have to

1357
00:55:08,549 --> 00:55:05,170
understand what that means but we're all

1358
00:55:10,769 --> 00:55:08,559
connected our idea of time is not what

1359
00:55:13,019 --> 00:55:10,779
we think it is all these things as soon

1360
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:13,029
as those things break down you can't run

1361
00:55:18,029 --> 00:55:15,730
a nation station you certainly can't go

1362
00:55:21,870 --> 00:55:18,039
bomb other people and do all the other

1363
00:55:24,089 --> 00:55:21,880
crazy stuff you can't deny basic water

1364
00:55:25,950 --> 00:55:24,099
and health and the things that we do to

1365
00:55:28,289 --> 00:55:25,960
do all these people so that we can you

1366
00:55:29,940 --> 00:55:28,299
just can't run the game and I'm not

1367
00:55:33,359 --> 00:55:29,950
saying that's necessarily good or bad

1368
00:55:36,059 --> 00:55:33,369
because hell I have too many advantages

1369
00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:36,069
say that I banged my head against that

1370
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:37,569
you know when I first got into this it

1371
00:55:42,420 --> 00:55:39,490
was like gosh darn it why aren't these

1372
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:42,430
scientists looking into this and if only

1373
00:55:47,269 --> 00:55:45,010
they knew you know it's like hey the

1374
00:55:49,950 --> 00:55:47,279
whole process the whole system is

1375
00:55:52,650 --> 00:55:49,960
orchestrated so that anyone who has that

1376
00:55:54,599 --> 00:55:52,660
awareness is kicked out from the

1377
00:55:57,359 --> 00:55:54,609
beginning because you can't have those

1378
00:55:59,460 --> 00:55:57,369
Yahoo's running it and pointing and

1379
00:56:00,750 --> 00:55:59,470
saying that emperor has no clothes and

1380
00:56:01,890 --> 00:56:00,760
that you know you're coming out for a

1381
00:56:04,829 --> 00:56:01,900
whole different perspective saying hey

1382
00:56:06,630 --> 00:56:04,839
the UFOs are running the show and I come

1383
00:56:07,350 --> 00:56:06,640
at it from another perspective and say

1384
00:56:09,090 --> 00:56:07,360
hey

1385
00:56:12,390 --> 00:56:09,100
as a non-religious person as a

1386
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:12,400
non-christian God is in control God is

1387
00:56:19,700 --> 00:56:15,520
clearly in control when these near-death

1388
00:56:23,790 --> 00:56:19,710
experiencers die they tell you they see

1389
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:23,800
God you just can't get past that and and

1390
00:56:27,870 --> 00:56:25,210
it's funny because I've talked a bunch

1391
00:56:29,820 --> 00:56:27,880
of near-death experience researchers and

1392
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:29,830
they've said you know I just had a great

1393
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:33,490
interview with a guy who who I think is

1394
00:56:38,250 --> 00:56:36,610
one of the the real champions of that

1395
00:56:40,170 --> 00:56:38,260
but Melvin Morrison we had this

1396
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,180
discussion and he kind of came to the

1397
00:56:44,190 --> 00:56:41,920
same thing he says you know you're right

1398
00:56:47,700 --> 00:56:44,200
I have to play around with that concept

1399
00:56:49,950 --> 00:56:47,710
because imagine this so he's an outsider

1400
00:56:52,380 --> 00:56:49,960
he's a near-death experience researcher

1401
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:52,390
he's a physician pediatrician teaches at

1402
00:56:56,580 --> 00:56:54,640
a hospital but he's still an outsider

1403
00:56:59,790 --> 00:56:56,590
right he's ostracized because he's

1404
00:57:02,910 --> 00:56:59,800
researches indie NDE stuff but even

1405
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:02,920
within the NDE community he's an

1406
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:05,530
outsider if he goes and says well yeah

1407
00:57:09,570 --> 00:57:07,450
they do talk about God and we have to

1408
00:57:12,180 --> 00:57:09,580
figure out what that would mean that

1409
00:57:15,180 --> 00:57:12,190
that higher higher higher higher higher

1410
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:15,190
higher consciousness that we would then

1411
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:17,290
call God we have to factor that in the

1412
00:57:23,070 --> 00:57:20,170
equation we can't just waffle it and say

1413
00:57:24,870 --> 00:57:23,080
well yeah maybe we're all connected in

1414
00:57:26,580 --> 00:57:24,880
some way you know that's not what the

1415
00:57:28,650 --> 00:57:26,590
evidence is that's not what the best

1416
00:57:30,180 --> 00:57:28,660
evidence is telling us the best evidence

1417
00:57:33,420 --> 00:57:30,190
is telling us that there's something

1418
00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:33,430
pretty close to what we've always been

1419
00:57:37,940 --> 00:57:35,830
told is God and what all these different

1420
00:57:41,100 --> 00:57:37,950
religions and wisdom traditions and

1421
00:57:42,630 --> 00:57:41,110
Native Americans and Aborigines have

1422
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:42,640
always pointed to and said hell there's

1423
00:57:48,330 --> 00:57:45,280
there's like a real real high guy up

1424
00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:48,340
there and that's God and that's more

1425
00:57:53,580 --> 00:57:51,310
than all this other stuff so that's

1426
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:53,590
where I'm coming at it from and and you

1427
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:55,090
know that's just a hard thing to get

1428
00:58:00,000 --> 00:57:57,130
over given the way we've kind of

1429
00:58:02,670 --> 00:58:00,010
orchestrated the whole deal that we have

1430
00:58:05,130 --> 00:58:02,680
here to work inside of our materialistic

1431
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:05,140
world yeah you just got to transfer that

1432
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:07,450
that sort of God thing is find a way to

1433
00:58:12,510 --> 00:58:09,490
make a buck out of it and would accept

1434
00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:12,520
it or take the thread out because in

1435
00:58:15,930 --> 00:58:14,200
terms of I've mentioned numerous times

1436
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:15,940
in your whole community it's the if you

1437
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:17,970
take a look at the interaction between

1438
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:20,530
abductees and the aliens it is

1439
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:25,770
actually direct ESP direct mind-to-mind

1440
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:28,720
interaction there's no like the all the

1441
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:30,850
ESP experiments that have been run by by

1442
00:58:35,460 --> 00:58:32,890
humans have all this noise to you know

1443
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:35,470
to signal ratio that it's that's sort of

1444
00:58:39,900 --> 00:58:38,110
bad at the at the best of times and here

1445
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:39,910
it's like there's there's absolutely no

1446
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:41,200
noise whatsoever there's this

1447
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:43,810
interaction so if you look at that

1448
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:47,440
that's a major threat to to say

1449
00:58:51,390 --> 00:58:49,810
governments I mean if you're it's if you

1450
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:51,400
can read somebody's mind I mean what do

1451
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:52,720
you do if you're a politician now

1452
00:58:56,340 --> 00:58:55,210
running for the 2012 election you stand

1453
00:58:58,260 --> 00:58:56,350
up to make a speech everybody knows

1454
00:59:01,710 --> 00:58:58,270
exactly what you're thinking there there

1455
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:01,720
is no scam anymore and that to to meet

1456
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:04,240
it to an establishment is something like

1457
00:59:07,260 --> 00:59:05,710
let's keep this out of here this is this

1458
00:59:08,700 --> 00:59:07,270
is not something we want right but if I

1459
00:59:10,170 --> 00:59:08,710
can make one more point drill into this

1460
00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:10,180
guy be interested to get your opinion on

1461
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:12,910
this you know and that's that again and

1462
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:14,770
then I just can't stress this enough so

1463
00:59:18,060 --> 00:59:15,970
I'm gonna stress it one more time

1464
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:18,070
I'm not coming at this from a religious

1465
00:59:23,790 --> 00:59:21,010
perspective I don't have any agenda to

1466
00:59:25,830 --> 00:59:23,800
push in terms of any religion or even

1467
00:59:27,810 --> 00:59:25,840
any kind of spirituality

1468
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:27,820
I just come at it from looking at the

1469
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:30,490
facts and the facts are the abductors

1470
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:33,490
don't talk about the aliens as being God

1471
00:59:37,980 --> 00:59:36,130
they see this level of consciousness

1472
00:59:40,620 --> 00:59:37,990
that is greater than them but they don't

1473
00:59:42,630 --> 00:59:40,630
see it as God and God here is just a

1474
00:59:44,070 --> 00:59:42,640
placeholder people are gonna freak out

1475
00:59:46,770 --> 00:59:44,080
they do all the time whenever you say

1476
00:59:48,780 --> 00:59:46,780
God but a placeholder for a very very

1477
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:48,790
high consciousness and the people who

1478
00:59:54,090 --> 00:59:51,280
have the Kundalini experience who have

1479
00:59:55,830 --> 00:59:54,100
the spontaneous prayer experience who

1480
00:59:58,460 --> 00:59:55,840
have the near-death experience in

1481
01:00:01,440 --> 00:59:58,470
particular they do talk about

1482
01:00:03,710 --> 01:00:01,450
quote-unquote God and I don't see too

1483
01:00:06,300 --> 01:00:03,720
many people really making that

1484
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:06,310
differentiation they just go in and say

1485
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:09,760
oh yeah well the the abductees had this

1486
01:00:15,660 --> 01:00:12,730
ESP experience or this out-of-body

1487
01:00:18,990 --> 01:00:15,670
experience so there must be some it's

1488
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:19,000
it's like the the aliens are God well

1489
01:00:22,980 --> 01:00:20,410
you know what I don't know if that's

1490
01:00:24,660 --> 01:00:22,990
true or not but the data that we do have

1491
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:24,670
suggests that it's something very

1492
01:00:29,220 --> 01:00:26,650
different and that people know when

1493
01:00:31,350 --> 01:00:29,230
they're encountering something like God

1494
01:00:34,350 --> 01:00:31,360
and they can differentiate when their

1495
01:00:36,540 --> 01:00:34,360
accounting something like an alien

1496
01:00:38,790 --> 01:00:36,550
justice I mean instead of different it's

1497
01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:38,800
at a lower level it's like a lower

1498
01:00:42,330 --> 01:00:41,080
frequency or whatever it's the same sort

1499
01:00:44,790 --> 01:00:42,340
of experience that consciousness would

1500
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:44,800
explain everything I mean from the from

1501
01:00:49,830 --> 01:00:47,050
the top from God all the way down to the

1502
01:00:51,810 --> 01:00:49,840
most basic material things it's all

1503
01:00:53,310 --> 01:00:51,820
still consciousness it's it's sort of

1504
01:00:56,070 --> 01:00:53,320
different vibrations or different levels

1505
01:01:00,510 --> 01:00:56,080
and so your ESP that's happening at the

1506
01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:00,520
at the alien level is a higher level

1507
01:01:06,060 --> 01:01:03,280
than what we have talking to each other

1508
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:06,070
on the earth and I I started out I mean

1509
01:01:12,060 --> 01:01:09,280
that was my experience before UFOs I was

1510
01:01:13,620 --> 01:01:12,070
at university and that was my major is

1511
01:01:15,540 --> 01:01:13,630
religion and I did the near-death

1512
01:01:16,830 --> 01:01:15,550
experience thing I went to talk to the

1513
01:01:19,170 --> 01:01:16,840
different chaplains and asked all the

1514
01:01:21,390 --> 01:01:19,180
weird questions of the various chaplains

1515
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:21,400
you know like did you know did anybody

1516
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:22,960
ever walk out you know was there any

1517
01:01:26,670 --> 01:01:24,910
miracles didn't they ever walk out did

1518
01:01:27,660 --> 01:01:26,680
anybody ever predict their death did to

1519
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:27,670
tell you exactly when they were gonna

1520
01:01:32,100 --> 01:01:29,920
die and I all these weird things that

1521
01:01:34,710 --> 01:01:32,110
surrounded death and it there definitely

1522
01:01:37,490 --> 01:01:34,720
was a religious aspect of the thing

1523
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:37,500
that's different than the UFO

1524
01:01:41,610 --> 01:01:39,850
interaction between aliens that when

1525
01:01:42,780 --> 01:01:41,620
you're talking and I went to chaplains

1526
01:01:45,180 --> 01:01:42,790
rather than to ministers because

1527
01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:45,190
chaplains there's no sort of garbage

1528
01:01:48,990 --> 01:01:47,140
it's basically they're dealing with

1529
01:01:51,090 --> 01:01:49,000
dying people all the time they're not

1530
01:01:53,070 --> 01:01:51,100
they're trying to you know recruit you

1531
01:01:54,510 --> 01:01:53,080
to the Roman Catholic religion or

1532
01:01:55,950 --> 01:01:54,520
Lutheran religion or whatever it's

1533
01:01:57,090 --> 01:01:55,960
basically the dealing with dying people

1534
01:01:59,280 --> 01:01:57,100
and that's what I wanted to talk to

1535
01:02:00,840 --> 01:01:59,290
because it's like when you come to death

1536
01:02:02,070 --> 01:02:00,850
there's no more there's no more crap

1537
01:02:04,410 --> 01:02:02,080
everybody's telling the truth

1538
01:02:08,060 --> 01:02:04,420
everybody's basically telling you the

1539
01:02:10,980 --> 01:02:08,070
way it is and there was this religious

1540
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:10,990
atheist I had numerous ones where did

1541
01:02:13,350 --> 01:02:12,160
you ever have an atheist did they ever

1542
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:13,360
come back with a near-death experience

1543
01:02:19,290 --> 01:02:16,210
and it would it still came down to this

1544
01:02:20,970 --> 01:02:19,300
this higher god thing which as you say

1545
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:20,980
is different than the the alien thing

1546
01:02:24,810 --> 01:02:22,690
but it's the same sort of we're just

1547
01:02:26,130 --> 01:02:24,820
looking at different levels of this

1548
01:02:27,900 --> 01:02:26,140
consciousness thing that it's all

1549
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:27,910
consciousness but in the UFO community

1550
01:02:32,790 --> 01:02:30,250
people do not understand that is there's

1551
01:02:37,380 --> 01:02:32,800
still at this basic level of nuts and

1552
01:02:40,740 --> 01:02:37,390
bolts us versus them military aspects

1553
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:40,750
and there is there is a difference but

1554
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:42,490
it's still consciousness it's it's

1555
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:44,650
whatever level you're at that is

1556
01:02:47,540 --> 01:02:46,570
explaining the same thing and once you

1557
01:02:49,370 --> 01:02:47,550
understand

1558
01:02:52,180 --> 01:02:49,380
consciousness you can sort of understood

1559
01:02:54,650 --> 01:02:52,190
them in the different levels and explain

1560
01:02:56,810 --> 01:02:54,660
you know what's going on but I don't

1561
01:02:59,180 --> 01:02:56,820
think we were just we're so much in the

1562
01:03:02,750 --> 01:02:59,190
material world that consciousness really

1563
01:03:04,250 --> 01:03:02,760
has not been researched very much by

1564
01:03:06,530 --> 01:03:04,260
anybody and that's that's the basic

1565
01:03:08,660 --> 01:03:06,540
problem we have right hey grant tell us

1566
01:03:11,330 --> 01:03:08,670
what's going on what's coming up for you

1567
01:03:13,940 --> 01:03:11,340
in terms of books appearances anything

1568
01:03:15,950 --> 01:03:13,950
like that well I'm doing I'm redoing

1569
01:03:17,810 --> 01:03:15,960
this book that we did in 1990 that

1570
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:17,820
basically tells the story about Wilbur

1571
01:03:24,590 --> 01:03:21,450
Smith and going to the states and dr.

1572
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:24,600
Eric Walker and we go into area 51 sort

1573
01:03:29,420 --> 01:03:27,210
of the the updated story of era 51 that

1574
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:29,430
gives the reality and that's being

1575
01:03:34,340 --> 01:03:31,890
republished within Richard Dolan is

1576
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:34,350
going to republish that within the next

1577
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:37,290
three or four months but basically I'm

1578
01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:38,640
giving the consciousness lecture I I

1579
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,190
think this is as I said one of the three

1580
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:43,440
top periods of my life the one was when

1581
01:03:47,450 --> 01:03:44,850
I had the UFO sighting the one when I

1582
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:47,460
saw dr. Michael Newton speak about life

1583
01:03:51,110 --> 01:03:49,290
between lives and the third was when I

1584
01:03:52,550 --> 01:03:51,120
had this consciousness thing last year

1585
01:03:53,810 --> 01:03:52,560
at the Phoenix so I'm giving this

1586
01:03:56,780 --> 01:03:53,820
consciousness lecture I'm giving it

1587
01:04:00,430 --> 01:03:56,790
first in England in beginning of August

1588
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:00,440
then in Philadelphia at the end of

1589
01:04:05,180 --> 01:04:02,490
September I'm giving the consciousness

1590
01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:05,190
lecture I'm giving it at the Phoenix at

1591
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:10,880
the UFO conference next February in

1592
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:13,410
Phoenix Arizona and then I'll be giving

1593
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:15,930
it in Orlando in May so it'll be the

1594
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:18,570
same lecture and as I thought it'll be a

1595
01:04:22,490 --> 01:04:20,850
more developed lecture as I go along but

1596
01:04:24,470 --> 01:04:22,500
this is the lecture I'm giving now I

1597
01:04:26,060 --> 01:04:24,480
think it's the most as I'm saying it's

1598
01:04:28,490 --> 01:04:26,070
the most important thing that the UFO

1599
01:04:31,070 --> 01:04:28,500
community now I think has to learn is

1600
01:04:32,780 --> 01:04:31,080
that this is a critical thing if you

1601
01:04:35,090 --> 01:04:32,790
want to understand what's going on and

1602
01:04:37,550 --> 01:04:35,100
understand the fact that government is

1603
01:04:39,350 --> 01:04:37,560
always known this you better start

1604
01:04:41,870 --> 01:04:39,360
looking at this aspect of consciousness

1605
01:04:44,570 --> 01:04:41,880
because we have entirely missed the boat

1606
01:04:46,430 --> 01:04:44,580
we are floundering around still looking

1607
01:04:48,770 --> 01:04:46,440
at sightings and tracking sightings and

1608
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:48,780
stuff we I think we have missed one of

1609
01:04:53,540 --> 01:04:51,570
the key aspects of of the whole

1610
01:04:55,100 --> 01:04:53,550
phenomena that would give us a lot of

1611
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:55,110
the answers as to what's going on in

1612
01:04:58,820 --> 01:04:56,850
UFOs and that is the consciousness thing

1613
01:05:00,890 --> 01:04:58,830
so it it's a consciousness lecture and

1614
01:05:03,140 --> 01:05:00,900
and Colin Andrews is

1615
01:05:06,050 --> 01:05:03,150
follow me in London he's giving the

1616
01:05:07,670 --> 01:05:06,060
consciousness lecture he knows mine were

1617
01:05:09,410 --> 01:05:07,680
exchanging information on consciousness

1618
01:05:11,090 --> 01:05:09,420
he's going to give the one on the crop

1619
01:05:13,340 --> 01:05:11,100
circles again about consciousness and

1620
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:13,350
crop circles and I think it's you'll see

1621
01:05:17,710 --> 01:05:15,810
it slowly move into the UFO community

1622
01:05:20,810 --> 01:05:17,720
it'll be fought by a lot of people but

1623
01:05:22,220 --> 01:05:20,820
this this is I as I said this is

1624
01:05:24,020 --> 01:05:22,230
something the UFO community is missed

1625
01:05:25,850 --> 01:05:24,030
and I'm gonna start talking about it

1626
01:05:28,220 --> 01:05:25,860
because it to me was a revelation I was

1627
01:05:31,550 --> 01:05:28,230
missing it as well great and so more for

1628
01:05:34,340 --> 01:05:31,560
more information people presidential UFO

1629
01:05:36,590 --> 01:05:34,350
calm i appreciate your time and your

1630
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:36,600
interest it's it's strange to see

1631
01:05:40,100 --> 01:05:38,130
somebody outside of UFO community take

1632
01:05:41,810 --> 01:05:40,110
this interest and i'm i'm glad you did

1633
01:05:44,270 --> 01:05:41,820
and I hope that our two communities sort

1634
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:44,280
of have more interactions so because I

1635
01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:45,930
think we have something to offer each

1636
01:05:49,700 --> 01:05:47,700
other that that will help each of us

1637
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:49,710
understand what the others what the

1638
01:05:53,810 --> 01:05:51,530
other side is doing and help us

1639
01:05:56,060 --> 01:05:53,820
understand the answers we need in our

1640
01:05:58,420 --> 01:05:56,070
field great I couldn't agree more you

1641
01:06:02,090 --> 01:05:58,430
know it's this never-ending process of

1642
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:02,100
opening yourself up to more and more of

1643
01:06:05,210 --> 01:06:03,450
what's out there and it's always a

1644
01:06:07,220 --> 01:06:05,220
little uncomfortable you know and I'm

1645
01:06:09,590 --> 01:06:07,230
sure some listeners to this show are a

1646
01:06:11,810 --> 01:06:09,600
little uncomfortable tiptoeing into the

1647
01:06:13,940 --> 01:06:11,820
UFO field but gosh darnit

1648
01:06:16,490 --> 01:06:13,950
just have to follow the stuff wherever

1649
01:06:18,050 --> 01:06:16,500
it leads and that's really our charter

1650
01:06:20,510 --> 01:06:18,060
isn't it we just have to go where it

1651
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:20,520
takes us well thanks so much for joining

1652
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:22,650
us today I just AM delighted with the

1653
01:06:24,890 --> 01:06:24,090
way this came out and I hope people

1654
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:24,900
enjoy it

1655
01:06:29,780 --> 01:06:27,690
bureau thanks Alex thanks again to Grant

1656
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:29,790
Cameron for joining me today on skeptic

1657
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:32,850
oh there's so many many topics that I'd

1658
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:34,770
like to discuss as a result of this

1659
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:37,050
interview but I'm gonna tee up just two

1660
01:06:43,210 --> 01:06:40,050
of them here first what are we to make

1661
01:06:45,980 --> 01:06:43,220
of our governments apparent knowledge of

1662
01:06:48,650 --> 01:06:45,990
expanded human capabilities when it

1663
01:06:51,050 --> 01:06:48,660
comes to consciousness ESP mind reading

1664
01:06:54,170 --> 01:06:51,060
and the rest what are we to make of that

1665
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:54,180
given the public scientific stance

1666
01:06:59,240 --> 01:06:56,250
that's being promoted by that same

1667
01:07:02,240 --> 01:06:59,250
government what is really going on there

1668
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:02,250
and secondly really the big question

1669
01:07:06,860 --> 01:07:04,050
what does this knowledge about what

1670
01:07:09,950 --> 01:07:06,870
we've encountered with UFO consciousness

1671
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:09,960
mean in terms of a larger story of human

1672
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:13,170
consciousness and spirituality it's a

1673
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:14,400
topic we touched

1674
01:07:19,550 --> 01:07:16,770
in the interview and it's obviously the

1675
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:19,560
big question what is UFO consciousness

1676
01:07:25,070 --> 01:07:22,290
have to do with NDE consciousness have

1677
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:25,080
to do with psychedelic consciousness how

1678
01:07:29,150 --> 01:07:27,810
do they all tie together and of course

1679
01:07:32,180 --> 01:07:29,160
we're not going to have any definitive

1680
01:07:34,130 --> 01:07:32,190
answers but we can maybe kick around how

1681
01:07:36,260 --> 01:07:34,140
we can nudge a little bit closer to

1682
01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:36,270
putting some of those pieces together in

1683
01:07:40,550 --> 01:07:38,880
a way that's meaningful I'll look

1684
01:07:42,980 --> 01:07:40,560
forward to hearing what you have to say

1685
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:42,990
on that and the best place to do it is

1686
01:07:50,030 --> 01:07:46,290
of course on The Skeptical website at sk

1687
01:07:52,490 --> 01:07:50,040
EP tik o dot-com or on The Skeptical

1688
01:07:54,740 --> 01:07:52,500
forum or you can always just send me an

1689
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:54,750
email or drop me a note on my facebook

1690
01:07:58,610 --> 01:07:56,850
account by the way of course when you're

1691
01:08:00,770 --> 01:07:58,620
at The Skeptical website be sure to

1692
01:08:02,540 --> 01:08:00,780
check out all our previous episodes of

1693
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:02,550
skeptical that you can download for free

1694
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:04,890
and most can read the transcript for

1695
01:08:09,740 --> 01:08:07,200
free and the website I've also started

1696
01:08:11,750 --> 01:08:09,750
publishing youtubes for the interviews

1697
01:08:14,180 --> 01:08:11,760
they're really not a lot more than just

1698
01:08:16,250 --> 01:08:14,190
the audio with a few graphics overlay it

1699
01:08:19,070 --> 01:08:16,260
on the top but at least it gives skeptic

1700
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:19,080
Oh some exposure to folks who search on

1701
01:08:22,970 --> 01:08:21,090
YouTube well that's going to do it for

1702
01:08:25,340 --> 01:08:22,980
today I have a number of interesting

1703
01:08:26,570 --> 01:08:25,350
shows coming up I'll be getting to them